Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!pertec!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Libertarians in Space
Message-ID: <373@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 17-Jul-85 17:06:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.373
Posted: Wed Jul 17 17:06:28 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 23-Jul-85 05:08:42 EDT
References: <446@qantel.UUCP> <454@qantel.UUCP> <293@kontron.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
Lines: 45

> > There are many motivations besides self-interest and greed --- but there
> > are no so certain (sic) to be present in almost all people, almost all the
> > time.  The socialists assume that most people will look out for the interests
> > of the society as a whole; libertarians assume that most people will
> > look out for their own interests.
> >
> >					Clayton Cramer
> 
> I took "socialist" to be used in the sense of antithesis to libertarianism,
> as it has been used more-or-less interchangeably with "statist" in previous
> libertarian nhetoric.  However, in view of your later explanation:
> 
The word "socialist" can (and is) used in a lot of different senses.
There is the economic sense, where the state owns the means of production.
There is the social sense, where the the state has the right to control and
regulate people's lives.  While not identical, the economic and social
senses of "socialism" are quite close because if you own the means of
production (which includes housing), you can exercise tremendous control
over the lives of your employees and tenants.

> > Good point.  Let me clarify.  The Soviet Union (and a lot of other
> > socialists, including the ones who find the Soviet Union embarrassing)
> > maintain that the capitalist system has created self-interested
> > individuals, rather than a True Socialist Man.  They believe that by
> > creating a society in which self-interest in not rewarded, that people
> > will become less self-interested, and more collective-interested.
> 
> It is clear that you were contrasting libertarianism with utopian Marxism.
> 
> Since none of us who have posted objections to libertarianism has argued 
> from such a Lysenkoist perspective, I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you 
> brought it up.
> 
> 						Baba

Not in this newsgroup, but take a look in net.politics.  However, the
essential beliefs of the utopian Marxists don't seem dramatically
different.  A lot of people who call themselves "socialists" in this
country, and in Europe, in fact are "liberals" --- in the sense that
they believe in maximum freedom from coercion, consistent with the
common good.  They differ from libertarians in their definitions of
"common good".

I have sensed from reading your postings, Baba, that you more properly fit
in that category than "socialist".