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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Assumed evil in non-christians and assumed good in christians
Message-ID: <2153@pucc-h>
Date: Sat, 27-Jul-85 06:06:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.2153
Posted: Sat Jul 27 06:06:17 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 29-Jul-85 06:21:12 EDT
References: <1707@reed.UUCP>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
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Somewhat wandering response to purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva):

>   I've recently become acquainted with several professional musicians.
> None of them are Christians as far as I know....  Yet I can honestly say
> that I've never had a group of Christians treat me more warmly or be more
> accepting of me than this group....  Is their treatment of me "moral" or
> just "nice". If it's nice and has nothing to do with moral, then what exactly
> is moral. And do Christians only need to be "moral" and not necessarily
> "nice"? Or perhaps a better question is are Christians more moral than
> non-Christians but not necessarily nicer? Frankly - you couldn't get a nicer
> group than this one, although I'm sure that there are more "moral" groups if
> you mean moral in the sense of sex, drinking, etc. 
>   I guess the questions that I have are, what is meant here by
> morality [in a quote from Paul DuBois which I did not include] ...,
> what's the difference between morality and the way these people have
> treated me (if there is any), which is more important, morality or
> accepting people openly (or is it the same thing), and does being more
> moral make you a better person? 

I think the last paragraph is pretty clearly answered by the example of
Jesus's life; He seemed "immoral" to the "moral" people of His day, because
he accepted tax collectors, prostitutes, and other outcasts, not to mention
some rude and crude fishermen.  Of course, He did more than just accept them;
He believed in them.  He said to these ordinary people, "You are the light of
the world, the salt of the earth."  He lovingly accepted one man even after
that man, though Jesus's close friend, had denied three times that he knew
Him at all -- and that man (of whom Jesus had long before said, "Upon this
rock I will build my church") was soon transformed from a rough, impulsive
hick fisherman to a powerful leader.

But if we talk of Christian morality, when asked what the greatest commandment
in the Law was, "Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your soul and with all your mind [and with all your strength, as the
Mark version puts it]'.  And the second is like it:  'Love your neighbor as
yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
(Matthew 22:37-40)  This was not intended to be restrictive:  Paul (whom many
condemn as a moralist) talks much about freedom, e.g. Romans 6:6, "We know
that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be
rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin"; Galatians 5:1,
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.  Stand firm, then, and do not
let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery"; and in this same
chapter (Galatians 5:13,14) he goes on, combining the idea of freedom with an
echo of Jesus's words, "You, my brothers, were called to be free.  But do not
use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in
love.  The entire Law is summed up in a single command:  'Love your neighbor
as yourself.'"  [In passing it might be mentioned that the next verse,
Galatians 5:15, applies to some of the other discussions going on in this
and other newsgroups:  "If you keep on biting and devouring each other,
watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."]

But I am beginning to learn not to look at the command to love as a command,
but rather as something in my own best interest -- noting that love is (very
rough definition) an attitude which expresses itself in doing things which
benefit the persons loved, because one desires to benefit those persons and
not because it is "moral" or "right" -- or even commanded -- to do it.  Paul
himself realized this when he wrote, "If I give all I possess to the poor and
surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, *I* *gain* *nothing*" [my
emphasis] (I Corinthians 13:3).

I'm not sure what to think of those who are loving and accepting people more
or less by nature, i.e. without any explicit relationship to Christ, such
as your musician friends, other than to say that loving and accepting can be
a good deal of work, so if they do not have a reliable source of love and
acceptance to refuel them, they may have a difficult time continuing in their
ability to love and accept.  But on the other hand, "Everyone who loves has
been born of God and knows God" [I John 4:7b].  Could it be that these
musicians are indeed touched by the love of God without naming it?  As
Frederick Buechner points out, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life,
and no one comes to the Father but through Him -- not through believing a
certain flavor of doctrines, nor through doing a bunch of good deeds, but
through Christ -- and a Christian is just someone who has a dim, half-baked
idea of whom to thank.  [Approximate quote from a book called (are you ready
for this?) "Wishful Thinking" -- written by a Christian!  I'll have to read
the whole thing someday soon.]  But perhaps the fact that these musicians
don't know the source of their loving is the reason that:

>   On a slightly different topic,... although these people are very happy
> with their jobs, a lot of them don't seem to be happy people.

>     elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)

Hmmm....  Since you have stated in net.singles that you are an "aggressive"
woman (in the sense of taking initiatives, e.g. with men), I wonder if you
might actually have lived up to your nickname at some time!  :-)

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!aeq
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.  (James 5:16)
The prayer of a not-so-righteous man availeth sometimes....  (Rich McDaniel)