Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Down to Brass Tacks Message-ID: <1330@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Fri, 26-Jul-85 20:15:38 EDT Article-I.D.: pyuxd.1330 Posted: Fri Jul 26 20:15:38 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 28-Jul-85 15:07:39 EDT References: <11605@brl-tgr.ARPA> <1236@pyuxd.UUCP> <338@mhuxi.UUCP> <1315@pyuxd.UUCP> <339@mhuxi.UUCP> Organization: Whatever we're calling ourselves this week Lines: 68 > First, I think that your contributions to net.religion.jewish are important > and you should continue to post here. Now, Rich, down to business at hand! > The important commonality is that all three believe, more or less, that G-d > exists and that there was some sort of event at Mt. Sinai several thousand > years ago which formed the groundwork for Jewish beliefs. I don't have exact > statistics, but the number of people who are "affiliated" and born or > converted are in the millions. The important issue is that this is > net.religion.jewish NOT net.religion.atheist|agnostic|rosen|ubizmo. I think you're stretching it with the notion of commonality. What about the humanistic Jews who do not base their beliefs on religion (i.e., god) but on humanistic tenets as fostered in Judaism? What about the completely non-religious Jews? (Are they not Jews any more?) Even if orthopracts had their own isolated community, not imposing their "Jewish law" (their view of it) on others outside their community, even if they were to set up judgment against "criminals" and prosecute only those from within that community, I would STILL be appalled and I would STILL speak out against it. > Unless *you* can show me otherwise, Jewish people DO NOT try to force > their beliefs on others, whether they were born Jewish or not; correct > me if I am wrong. Proposing capital punishment for Jews or non-Jews who engage in homosexuality or other practices deemed "wrong" by a book strikes me as trying to force your beliefs on them, no? I hope you stand corrected. > Some people ( including myself ) have suggested that > you read some basic Jewish texts so that a discussion can be carried out > on a higher level. You, Rich, sometimes counter that *we* should read the > "Book of Ubizmo". Because it's just as valid a text for determining societal morality: it has great stories about events of thousands of years telling a story of a people under the care of the great god Ubizmo, who tore the livers and elbows off of anyone who disagreed with Him. (I can see it now: Samet wants to convert!) The only problem is I haven't finished it yet. :-) > I don't see how ( maybe I'm missing something ) that > Samet's, Martillo's or my suggestions on reading material are foistering > "our beliefs" on you or anyone else. Jews are just not noted for trying > to convert or change other people's beliefs. On the whole, as a group... > Most certainly, we are not trying to force you or anyone else to follow > our rules. Would you say that to a Jewish homosexual? To his face? Or, like Samet, would you spit first and string up after? > Since this is net.religion.jewish and not net.religion.* I do not > see why the burden of proof is on us. I can easily point you to > a few modern ( recent ) books that attempt to "prove" the Jewish > beliefs but since I don't want to read the book of Ubizmo I am not > going to list them, unless asked to. I have some books that do the same thing for Christianity, by people like McDowell and Lewis. They only seem to work as "proof" if you already make the assumptions in advance. It's the same for all religions, is it not? > My summary is quite simple: Given that this is net.religion.jewish, > there are a basic set of axioms that most of us agree with. Key word: Most. Even if "all", no one is obliged to accept them. This IS the real world, not some haven from it. -- "Meanwhile, I was still thinking..." Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr