Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 11/03/84 (WLS Mods); site fisher.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!astrovax!fisher!david From: david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) Newsgroups: net.sport.baseball Subject: Re: NL catchers (Carter vs. Pena) Message-ID: <704@fisher.UUCP> Date: Thu, 18-Jul-85 20:39:54 EDT Article-I.D.: fisher.704 Posted: Thu Jul 18 20:39:54 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 20-Jul-85 08:25:53 EDT References: <388@philabs.UUCP> Distribution: na Organization: Princeton University Department of Statistics Lines: 94 [>>=Rubin, >=Benjamin, =Rubin II] >>........................ I don't believe Pena's defense, at most >>marginally better than Carter's, makes up for what Carter has thus >>far done with the bat. ......................................... > ...................... Pena's defense leaves Carter, and the > others, in the dust. ....................................... > ............. Pena's arm is by far the best. His overall > defense is better. The stops he makes of bad pitches are > amazing. The most important measured defensive contribution a catcher makes is the slowing of the opposition's running game. Two teams have consistently been the toughest to run on the past few years. They featured veteran pitching staffs of high quality and rifle-armed catchers behind the plate. They were, of course, Montreal and Pittsburgh. No objective difference between the two club's ability to shut down an opposition running game are discernible (Montreal was a wee bit tougher); thus, no difference between the two catcher's abilities in this respect are demonstrable. Somewhat less critical is the number of bad pitches stopped by the catcher. I have watched both Pena and Carter with equal frequency (up until this year). I can see no difference. I doubt anyone really can. I will admit that Pena covers a little more ground in foul territory, and gets to the ball in front of home plate a wee bit quicker. However, those attributes are unlikely to be decisive in more than one game every decade, at least in the differences in ability we are discussing here. I stand by my choice of the word "marginal". Finally, the catcher's most important defensive contribution is unmeasured: the call of the game. Because it is unmeasured, it is often neglected. That is, of course, leads to a distorted view of a catcher's defensive value. However, because it is unmeasured, I will ignore it for the purposes of this discussion, satisfying myself with noting that, while many disinterested observers claim Carter is the best at calling a game in the majors today, few claim that distinction for Pena. > In addition, his offense is slighted. He hits for > higher percentage than the others, and has good extra-base > power. If by higher percentage, you mean a higher batting average, some years yes, some years no. If you mean a higher on base percentage, you are dead wrong: Tony Pena doesn't know the meaning of the words "base on balls" (odd, for a catcher, isn't it?). Finally, Carter's power and Pena's power are of different orders of magnitude. Remember also that Pena's stats were generated in a park moderately favoring hitters, while Carter's were generated in a park second only to the Astrodome (before dimension changes of this year) in depressing hitting statistics. > His speed on the basepaths is much better than the > others - perhaps you might have read that he scored from > first-base on a single a few games ago?....................... He does have better speed. Excellent for a catcher, unremarkable for anyone else. Again, this does not win many ballgames. > ..... He is a .300 hitter with 15 or so homers a year, bat- > ting in a terrible lineup. He is not a .300 hitter, and he doesn't hit 15 or so homers a year. If my memory serves me well, he's more a .280 hitter who hits 12 or so homers a year. A thin .280, too -- few walks. If you wish to contest me on this point, I will actually look it up. The Pirate lineup hasn't been as bad as you make it out to be. Pittsburgh lost it's oomph in the last few years. Chuck Tanner also had a damn good reason to bat Pena sixth instead of third -- he swings at everything. Mangers prefer the more disciplined hitters to precede the unreconstructed free swingers. The fact that Pena is finally batting third is due in no small measure to the abysmal performance of the rest of the team so far. Before this season (and last), Pena had played on generally good offensive teams. Certainly better than the Expos of the first half dozen years of Carter's career. > Two years ago, when Madlock, Thompson, etc. were still > hitting OK, Pena led the team in game-winning hits. Game winning rbi's is the silliest statistic yet invented. It's a random crap shoot among people batting in the middle of good line ups. > ............................ It's too bad he [Pena] plays for > Pittsburgh, for if he played in a media center, he'd be a > much bigger star. Carter made HIS reputation in a foreign country.... David Rubin {allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david