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From: gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Anti-rape tactics - a conundrum
Message-ID: <111@denelvx.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 25-Jul-85 06:20:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: denelvx.111
Posted: Thu Jul 25 06:20:36 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 27-Jul-85 02:19:55 EDT
References: <392@mit-vax.UUCP> <2432@sun.uucp>
Organization: Denelcor, Aurora, Colorados
Lines: 65

> But the only ultimate solution must deal with the cause of the problem
> 	(attitudes of men who rape)

This may only be a matter of semantics, but I feel I need to point this out.
The cause of the problem has little to do with the "attitudes of men who
rape".  I think it has more to do with the PSYCHOLOGY of men who rape.  
Crime, in general, is such a complex problem that it may never be solved.
Will we ever be a crime-free society?  I think it's an unattainable goal
unless you can raise people in a vacuum, free from "undesireable" influences.

> 	(attitudes of the criminal "due process" system).

These are changing.  Granted, it's a slow process, but did you expect it
to happen overnight?

> It doesn't matter how many times women try to point the discussion at the
> root problem in this (or any other forum), the men always redirect the
> discussion back at the women (it's the way they dress...)
> or back at the symptoms (I'll protect the women I care about).

What do you see as the "root problem"?  Men?  Men's attitudes?  I think
the root goes much deeper than that.  I think the root is hidden somewhere
in human psychological development and is the sum of many variables
including paternal and environmental influences, among who-knows-how-many
others.  There is much more to be explored before we can say, "Yup, here
it is right here.  The root of the problem.  See it?"  Right now, all we
can do is treat the symptoms, which is to, as you say, "Lock the bastards
up."

> That still leaves us with an overall attitude that men on the whole won't
> take responsibility for their actions or the actions of their peers.

Sunny, I'm really getting tired of reading your sexist crap!  Why should
"men" take responsibility for a man's anit-social behavior?  Do women take
responsibility for a woman who exhibits anti-social behavior?  You can't
divide it up like that and say, "Ok, you men go out in the garage and
take care of male anti-social behavior, and us women-folk'll go into the 
kitchen and take care of female anti-social behavior."  I do not consider
anti-social men to be my peers.  You can't just sit back and say, "Well,
it's men who do the raping, so men should solve the problem."  We all
have to work together, as a society, to, in the long run, solve the problem,
and, in the short run, treat the symptoms.

> Lock the bastards up, and quit letting them back out on the streets so they
> can rape again, and again, and again, without ever dealing with the
> psychology behind their actions.

I don't know how it works where you are, but here in Colorado, while we
can't vote to elect judges, we can vote to remove or retain them in office.
Beyond that, it comes down to electing people to the legislature who will
pass the laws you want passed.  I vote in ALL elections.  Even the piddly
ones.  Do you?

> p.p.s.Not until men view women as equals will any of these problems end.
> 	OK, men, how about organizing a push for the Equal Rights Ammendment?
> 	or is it that WASPS, black jews, purple people eaters, and all other
> 	men of every race, religion, creed, etc. have equal rights, but
> 	women don't?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the connection.  How is ERA going to end rape?
If you think that once ERA is passed rape will end, you're living in a 
dream-world, sister.

Gregg Mackenzie
denelcor!gmack