Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site timeinc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!timeinc!greenber From: greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Whose watching the kids Message-ID: <357@timeinc.UUCP> Date: Fri, 26-Jul-85 11:05:58 EDT Article-I.D.: timeinc.357 Posted: Fri Jul 26 11:05:58 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 29-Jul-85 07:40:00 EDT References: <580@ttidcc.UUCP> Reply-To: greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) Organization: Time, Inc. - New York Lines: 95 Summary: In article <580@ttidcc.UUCP> regard@ttidcc.UUCP (Adrienne Regard) writes: > >Yes, Ross, but why does it "hurt him more"? Could it be because men, on >the whole, haven't lobbied for their "rights" to take a full part in the >first few months responsibility of raising kids? Probably --- men really don't have any kind of organization behind them. Do you remember the ridicule directed at someone in net.women about a year ago when he suggested starting a "National Org. of Men"? The basic flame directed at this poor individual was:"Men already have all the advantage. Why would you need some _sexist_ group like that?" This was about the same time, BTW, that the "Association for Women in Computing" was considered *not* to be sexist in anyway by some members of this group. (Talking about joint responsibility in deciding who works and who stays home based on men making more money than women. Anger at this being called sexist): > >Yes, no and maybe. As long as you don't really have a choice (i.e., men in >general do make more and women, in general do get maternity benefits) you >can't really be held up for blame -- except for the fact that you haven't >done a damn thing to change this arbitrary set of assumptions. You're right -- we (men) haven't. You (women) have: the issue of pregnancy is now a special case. It used to be considered a "disability". This was changed, and now maternity leave is a benefit. Certainly pregancy is not a disability, but the benefit of maternity leave comes with a certain cost. Maybe a cost that wasn't thought about, and now the rules should be changed a little? I would love to take the time off to raise a child. But women MUST have time off due to the simple idea that she gives birth to the child. I would hope that the pregnancy didn't just happen: that it was planned, and the family decided whether they could afford it on one person's salary for a while. Okay, this is not the case in single mother households, I agree. But I'm only discussing the traditional family here. >.... Personally, I >think that the repurcussions of "maternity leave" are incredibly ruinous >to women -- but what's the option, presently, if men don't take a hand in >their own destinies, continuing to buy the old assumptions? > I tend to agree with you: women fought long and hard for something that can and is used against them. But the repurcussions are not totally in the man's lap: women were demanding special treatment that was solely based upon their sex and upon their capability of having children. I don't deny the right to special treatment. But is it fair to say: I want special treatment that benefits me due to my sex, and how dare you~r discriminate against me due to my sex? I, too, would love to have my cake, and eat it also. >.... If I were a man, >I'd be as furious about the inequality of "maternity" (Parental) benefits >as I currently am (being a woman) about discrimination against women in >the workplace. > >So, get furious, Ross, but don't bother with getting furious at Jeanette -- >get furious about the people who are making assumptions about you and your >fellow men where it counts -- at the office. > I am furious. I want the ability to take time off to raise my child. My Dad did an extraordinary job of raising me while still working. I would love to have the same strength, but would rather be able to work at raising my child on a full-time basis. But you're right, of course. I shouldn't get angry at Jeanette (Hi, Jeanette!). She is responding to the situation as she sees/feels it, just as I am. Sigh.... Thank you, Adrienne! Now the question exists: How do men get equal right???? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---- "I saw _Lassie_. It took me four shows to figure out why the hairy kid never spoke. I mean, he could roll over and all that, but did that deserve a series?"