Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site rti-sel.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi From: wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.flame Subject: Re: American Hostages Message-ID: <378@rti-sel.UUCP> Date: Mon, 26-Aug-85 12:21:33 EDT Article-I.D.: rti-sel.378 Posted: Mon Aug 26 12:21:33 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 28-Aug-85 10:00:49 EDT References: <1042@ihlpg.UUCP> <185@pyuxii.UUCP> <11045@rochester.UUCP> Reply-To: wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) Organization: Research Triangle Institute, NC Lines: 103 Xref: watmath net.politics:10683 net.flame:11703 Summary: In article <1696@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes: >CWP people seem to be nuts. But to go ahead and claim that we should not >be indignated by the fact that five people were shot to death, is shameful. >In my opinion, CWP wanted to prove that KKK people are beasts, and, >unfortunately, they have proven it. This fact however was obvious. The CWP people set themselves up to be martyrs. Most of the people in that march were from North Carolina and KNEW what the Klan's response to the march would be. I feel sorrow that these five people died, but no surprise. If you reread my posting you'll note that I stated no one should have to die for his/her beliefs. But my opinion is that these people deliberately set up a situation that would create an instant martyr for the CWP cause, and they got their wish. I lived in Charlottesville, VA. for about five years, and knew most of the people in that area who were political activists on the left. Most people in this group seemed to feel the CWP bordered on the lunatic fringe. At a couple of parties I met a fellow who had attended a Lutheran college in my home town back in the midwest before moving to Virginia for medical school; a couple of my friends back home who had attended that Lutheran college said to say hello to this person when I moved to Charlottesville. First time I met him was, as I said, at a party; I gave him my greetings from the folks back home and sat drinking Jack Daniels out of a bottle with him and chatting for a while. That person was Bill Sampson, one of the CWP members who was later killed in the "Death To The Klan" march. I am sorry a person I knew slightly died in this way. I never really knew Bill Sampson, or knew how he came to join the CWP lunatics. He seemed to be an average sort of a person and one who cared about other people. His death was a waste and I feel sorry for his family and friends who must go on without him. But if you deliberately go into the lion's den you have to accept the possibility that you will get eaten. Sympathy, yes; righteous indignation, no. I will not accept the banner of shame you want to lay on me. >CWP wanted also to prove that American judiciary system is a sham. >That I did not believe, by they have proven it as well. I don't see where they've proven anything about the American judicial system in general. North Carolina ain't Massachussetts, my friend. We have problems in this country but the USA in the '80s is not the same as the USA in the '50s. Real progress in human rights has been made and continues to be made in this country. If you doubt this, read your history books. >I really do not >think that Greensboro saga should be remembered as the case of publicity >hungry radicals which got what they deserved. We should rather remember >that some radicals managed to prove that in America equal protection >under the law does not exists. In some parts of the American South, sure. What's your argument for extrapolating to American society as a whole? Or even to all courts in the South, for that matter? Unless of course you're like the CWP paranoids who assume this society runs on monolithic secret conspiracies. Oh, and by the way, I made it perfectly clear in my posting that I didn't believe these people "got what they deserved." Their desire for publicity in this matter AND their desire for martyrs seems obvious, however. >Short reminder: KKK shot 5 people to death, and received some ineffective >return fire. All involved were aquitted on: murder, exceeding reasonable >limits of self-defence and rioting. Year earlier, in Tennesee, a robed >KKK member was about to smash the windshield of a car with a black family >inside. The driver shot him, and received a suspended prison sentence. >Standing conclusion: in Carolina and Tennessee shoting to KKK is a crime, >shooting to communists is not a crime. I haven't been following the North Carolina case closely, but I believe it's been taken to a higher court and that there may be a retrial (possibly in progress? I'm sure someone else can clarify this). I simply don't know about the other case. But to be surprised about the actions of the Klan or the sympathy shown toward the Klan in some Southern courts is naive in the extreme. We don't have a homogeneous or monolithic culture in this country, Piotr. And liberals in this country have been fighting for years to eradicate these injustices. The changes have been greatest, perhaps, in the South you seem to have such a loathing for. Jim Crow laws are dead; in most places, couples of mixed race walk freely on the street; I've yet to see a segregated restaurant in the South; George Wallace courts and gets the black vote in Alabama. There's been a mellowing trend in general in the South. Check it out sometime. We have a long way to go in this country, and it may sometimes seem with the return of ultraconservatism to Washington (and maybe soon new attacks of McCarthyism?) that we're backsliding at an alarming rate. But America has changed for the better since the mid-'50s, and my bet is that positive changes will continue over the long haul. >Bill seems te feel good. I believed in American justice and now I feel >ashamed and naive. I don't always 'feel good' about things that happen in this country. As far as American justice goes, I simply have no illusions about it. These are things we have to work to change, and it's a long drawn out process. If you doubt the effectiveness of working through established channels for change, compare our society today with society in the '50s. It's not perfect, but it's a better place for minorities. -- Bill Ingogly