Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site psuvax1.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cadre!psuvax1!berman From: berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.flame Subject: Re: American Hostages Message-ID: <1755@psuvax1.UUCP> Date: Thu, 29-Aug-85 03:49:10 EDT Article-I.D.: psuvax1.1755 Posted: Thu Aug 29 03:49:10 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 31-Aug-85 06:49:27 EDT References: <1042@ihlpg.UUCP> <185@pyuxii.UUCP> <11045@rochester.UUCP> Organization: Pennsylvania State Univ. Lines: 121 Xref: watmath net.politics:10741 net.flame:11740 > > Piotr Berman > Bill Ingogly > >CWP people seem to be nuts. But to go ahead and claim that we should not > >be indignated by the fact that five people were shot to death, is shameful. > >In my opinion, CWP wanted to prove that KKK people are beasts, and, > >unfortunately, they have proven it. This fact however was obvious. > The CWP people set themselves up to be martyrs. Most of the people in > that march were from North Carolina and KNEW what the Klan's response > to the march would be. I feel sorrow that these five people died, but > no surprise. If you reread my posting you'll note that I stated no one > should have to die for his/her beliefs. But my opinion is that these > people deliberately set up a situation that would create an instant > martyr for the CWP cause, and they got their wish. > >CWP wanted also to prove that American judiciary system is a sham. > >That I did not believe, by they have proven it as well. > I don't see where they've proven anything about the American judicial > system in general. North Carolina ain't Massachussetts, my friend. > We have problems in this country but the USA in the '80s is not the > same as the USA in the '50s. Real progress in human rights has been > made and continues to be made in this country. If you doubt this, read > your history books. > >I really do not > >think that Greensboro saga should be remembered as the case of publicity > >hungry radicals which got what they deserved. We should rather remember > >that some radicals managed to prove that in America equal protection > >under the law does not exists. > In some parts of the American South, sure. What's your argument for > extrapolating to American society as a whole? Or even to all courts in > the South, for that matter? Unless of course you're like the CWP > paranoids who assume this society runs on monolithic secret conspiracies. > > Oh, and by the way, I made it perfectly clear in my posting that I > didn't believe these people "got what they deserved." Their desire for > publicity in this matter AND their desire for martyrs seems obvious, > however. > >Short reminder: KKK shot 5 people to death, and received some ineffective > >return fire. All involved were aquitted on: murder, exceeding reasonable > >limits of self-defence and rioting. Year earlier, in Tennesee, a robed > >KKK member was about to smash the windshield of a car with a black family > >inside. The driver shot him, and received a suspended prison sentence. > >Standing conclusion: in Carolina and Tennessee shoting to KKK is a crime, > >shooting to communists is not a crime. > > I haven't been following the North Carolina case closely, but I > believe it's been taken to a higher court and that there may be a > retrial (possibly in progress? I'm sure someone else can clarify > this). I simply don't know about the other case. But to be surprised > about the actions of the Klan or the sympathy shown toward the Klan > in some Southern courts is naive in the extreme. We don't have a > homogeneous or monolithic culture in this country, Piotr. And liberals > in this country have been fighting for years to eradicate these > injustices. The changes have been greatest, perhaps, in the South > you seem to have such a loathing for. Jim Crow laws are dead; in most > places, couples of mixed race walk freely on the street; I've yet to > see a segregated restaurant in the South; George Wallace courts and > gets the black vote in Alabama. There's been a mellowing trend in > general in the South. Check it out sometime. > > We have a long way to go in this country, and it may sometimes seem > with the return of ultraconservatism to Washington (and maybe soon new > attacks of McCarthyism?) that we're backsliding at an alarming rate. > But America has changed for the better since the mid-'50s, and my bet > is that positive changes will continue over the long haul. > > >Bill seems te feel good. I believed in American justice and now I feel > >ashamed and naive. > > I don't always 'feel good' about things that happen in this country. > As far as American justice goes, I simply have no illusions about it. > These are things we have to work to change, and it's a long drawn out > process. If you doubt the effectiveness of working through established > channels for change, compare our society today with society in the > '50s. It's not perfect, but it's a better place for minorities. > > -- Bill Ingogly I admit that I put some slick rhetoric into my reply. My opinions about American justice changed because of Greensboro saga, but the change was from "very good" to "good". I have not felt ashamed and naive. I agree that America may serve as an example of overcoming injustices toward minorities. I agree with Bill that to change the system, one should play the game according to the existing rules. Yes, the success is visible, it is a better place. Yes, I know that the disparities between NC and MA are just a side effect of an intricate political system, designed to hold different parts together. However, Greensboro was an eye opener for me. I started to read newspapers more carefully. Here is what I noticed: 1. To a surprizing degree it is better to be black than white. As a small example, the routine practice of removing all blacks from juries is still valid. 2. To sadly insurprizing degree it is better to be rich than poor. This trend did not improve under Reagan. 3. Is better to be in North than is South. I have in mind some behaviors of policemen and judges. Summarizing, the American justice, with all its achievements, is not ideal. I am really glad to see that I share this assesment with Bill. Sadly, I see the same backsliding trend in this area. The Right pushes pseudosolutions and pseudoproblems. It would be worthwile to discuss what we see as the real problems and what should be done to "continue the positive changes over the long haul". Piotr Berman PS. I never been in the South. Bill wrote "they were from NC and they KNEW what KKK would do". How is it? How much the home state of Jesse Helms differs from PA or MA? I hope that an image of rednecks drinking beer with KKK, watching Helms TV station and hating militant nonsmokers is grossly undeserved. Can any eyewitness write something on that?