Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site decwrl.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!ucbvax!decwrl!bottom@katadn.DEC
From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Billion dollar coffee pots......yawn yorself
Message-ID: <300@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 4-Sep-85 10:00:41 EDT
Article-I.D.: decwrl.300
Posted: Wed Sep  4 10:00:41 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 5-Sep-85 09:35:14 EDT
Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 95

To Ken Arndt,
 I think that you missed my point. Too bad. The point is that *TEN* years
ago I tried to bring some of these things to light by writing to my and
possibly your congresspersons. No luck. Now some of these same people
are getting maximum media milage and acting like they just discovered this
problem. I agree it is difficult for the DOD to catch all of the errors,
I also believe that it is foolish to expect DOD to police itself. But how 
did this become an "idelogical" discussion, you might be surprised but
Don Black is a friend of mine. True confessions folks. Fit that into your
"facts". Or ignore them, your priveledge. I still believe that the system 
resists change. That includes correcting errors.

I used examples that I was knowlegable about firsthand, the E2 ashtray.
For your information there are two types of ashtray in that aircraft.
The pilots ashtray $600+ is a comercially available ashtray, the kind 
with the little button that folds away the two metal plates and the ashes
etc. fall inside. These were available thru the exchange for $3.98. We
(VAW-112 NAS Miramar SAn Diego CA) then soldered a small metal plate
@1" X 2" to the bottom of the ashtray and lo and behold it was now worth
$600+. The crew ashtray, typified by it's utter uselessness, was more $$.
These were a square aluminum box that was fitted to the bulkhead underneath the
crew radar scope. When attempting to empty these they always spilled all over 
the aircraft (ever hear of FOD? it kills people). Our airframes shop was able 
to fabricate these for a cost under $2. And they didn't spill. Too bad you
listened to grumman. Of course, they have a higher over head than some poor 
swabbies. If you read the propaganda put out by DOD in defense of it's own 
errors you will doubtless be taken in by all of the "action" they have taken 
over the years. They ignored countless efforts to get fair pricing, that were 
led not by the Office of the Inspector General, but by the squadrons that were 
having their already slim budgets plundered by these outrageous prices. We were
ordered to "lay off". No discussion. Good example of how the NAVY encourages
errors to be brought to light. This happened countless times in my squadron
alone over a short period of time (3 1/2 years). Let's make these facts fit
your "ideology".

So take some firsthand facts "Grumman custom made them and lost money"
BULLSHIT! Grumman made  thousands of these ashtrays and if they lost money
on some pretty color graph then those who believed it are as big a fool as 
those who bought it in the first place. The NAVY could make them in their
own shops for very low cost as I indicated above. Once again this is first
hand knowledge, not something *I* read in a book. The NAVY shops involved
were civillian employees (sand crabs) not the actual squadrons. We made 
our own as did most, if not all of the squadrons on the west coast. I cannot
speak for the squadrons based at Norfolk Virginia as I did not deal with them.

Facts, right!
 
These manufacturers use "tooling costs" as a catch all excuse for incredable
overpricing. Remember the Pratt & Whitney engine bolts? That was a deliberate
attempt to defraud the Government. It is not an isolated case but more the rule
in defense contracting. This was not my point, but it still needs to be brought
out in the open. I believe that the military/government purchasing organizations
are at the mercy of dishonest contractors (not all of the contractors), mainly
major aircraft and shipbuilders. They are powerless to prevent this type of 
occurance because of the number of discreet parts involved in building an
aircraft or a ship. Once again due to the number of parts involved the Inspector
General can only deal with the items that present themselves, they do not find
"all of these things first" as they have yet to find ten percent of the parts
that are overpriced. We are not talking 200% or 300% but 10000% overpricing.
I have worked in manufacturing for a few years now, not all of them with DEC,
and I know that tooling is expensive but $30 plastic switchcaps (litton made
these by the thousands for E2, S2, P3, S3, F14, F15, etc [derived from the 
usable on code in the FSN listings ])are not priced that high to recover the
tooling cost, they are priced that high so that litton can make an indecent
profit. After all, once the spare parts are purchased those product lines
all but die at the manufacturer. It's only fair, right? Sure, so is bussing
children in Boston.

I agree that some people do not understand how expensive it is to custom build
military hardware, any semiconductor engineer who has tried to get his part
MIL-SPEC approved should understand the rigerous testing involved. And the
cost. These manufacturers still use the massive numbers of parts involved as
a smokescreen to hide overpriced parts. And they get away with it. Daily.

It's also interesting to note that while non government corperations pay for 
their own R&D work, government contractors perform this work at the expense 
of the government (last I looked it still says "of the people, by the people,
for the people" ....that's us, after all we pay the bills right?) and then
they sell the product to the government. I know if they didn't we'd have to 
pay more right? 

The fact still remains that some congressmen, from New hampshire in particular,
knew about this and others for ten years before taking action. That's public
service. That was the point of my flame. I was not promoting some bizarre 
ideology that is in favor of cutting defense spending because they can't 
manage the process.

Oh yeah.....facts........

So next time get *YOUR* facts straight first. Or ignore them as *you* please.
I wouldn't wish to disturb *your* ideology.

Dave Bottom
DEC AUgusta Maine
!dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom