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From: charli@cylixd.UUCP (Charli Phillips)
Newsgroups: net.kids
Subject: Re: corporal punishment in schools
Message-ID: <241@cylixd.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 30-Aug-85 12:50:23 EDT
Article-I.D.: cylixd.241
Posted: Fri Aug 30 12:50:23 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 31-Aug-85 16:28:36 EDT
References: <2149T3B@psuvm> <658@rduxb.UUCP> <1214@teddy.UUCP>
Reply-To: charli@cylixd.UUCP (Charli Phillips)
Organization: RCA Cylix Communications , Memphis, TN
Lines: 47
Summary: 

> Discipline based on fear is worse than no discipline at all.  If a teacher
> can't command the respect of students through non-violent means,
> there is something wrong with the teacher.
> 
> My mother teaches second grade in one of the nastier areas of the
> Bronx, in New York City.  She maintains order by letting the
> students know, in no uncertain terms, that she will be fair with
> them, but NOT TAKE ANY CRAP.  She has their respect, and
> never resorts to corporal punishment (which is illegal).

That sounds fine with second graders.  But have you ever tried it with
high school students?  I have.  I was a substitute teacher for a while
in the high schools in Michigan City, Indiana.  Starting each class 
with an "opening speech" that made me sound like Atilla the Hun helped.
I intimidated them as best I could.  That worked with *most* of the
students.  The reason it worked was the policy in Michigan City that a
student thrown out of class by a substitute teacher got a three-day
suspension.  (They instituted that policy when they couldn't get
any substitutes.)  Since Michigan City also had a policy that after 
some given number of unexcused absences, the student automatically
failed, *most* of the students considered the threat of being thrown out
of class to be pretty serious.

However, there was a small percentage of the students who understood 
that I would NOT TAKE ANY CRAP who didn't care.  That's the difference
between second graders and eleventh graders.  The number who don't
care what the teacher think increases dramatically.  During the time I
substituted, I was threatened, propositioned, cursed at; I had students
walk out of class, refuse to sit down, refuse to shut up.  I threw these
students out of class.  That served to reinforce my reputation with the
students who did care.  As a result, I had fewer discipline problems 
than most substitutes.  (Most of them tried not to throw students out,
knowing the severe penalties.  I threw any kid out who challenged my
authority in any way, immediately.)

NOT TAKING CRAP only works if the kid has some reason to care what the
teacher thinks.  A second grader may fear the disapproval of the teacher
(and that's what NOT TAKING ANY CRAP boils down to).  Older kids don't.
Therefore, you have to have something else.  Either corporal punishment,
or expulsion, or *something*.

I think the *biggest* reason we're now having teacher shortages is not
pay, although that's part of it.  I'm not a teacher because I wasn't
willing to put up with the students who were abusive, disruptive, and
who weren't going to change just because I wouldn't put up with it.

		charli