Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site oliveb.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!decwrl!Glacier!oliveb!long From: long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) Newsgroups: net.kids Subject: Re: corporal punishment in schools Message-ID: <591@oliveb.UUCP> Date: Sun, 8-Sep-85 01:22:57 EDT Article-I.D.: oliveb.591 Posted: Sun Sep 8 01:22:57 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 9-Sep-85 03:55:38 EDT References: <2149T3B@psuvm> <658@rduxb.UUCP> <1214@teddy.UUCP> <241@cylixd.UUCP> Reply-To: long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) Organization: DARC; Cupertino, CA Lines: 71 Summary: In article <241@cylixd.UUCP> charli@cylixd.UUCP (Charli Phillips) writes: > However, there was a small percentage of the students who understood > that I would NOT TAKE ANY CRAP who didn't care. That's the difference > between second graders and eleventh graders. The number who don't > care what the teacher think increases dramatically. Charli, I think that the main reason for that is that eleventh graders are (hopefully) thinking human beings who can make up their own minds, rather than having their substitute teacher tell them what to think. > During the time I > substituted, I was threatened, propositioned, cursed at; I had students > walk out of class, refuse to sit down, refuse to shut up. There are two reasons for this behaviour: A) You are teaching cretinous students. Work for a different school district. B) You are one of those substitute teachers who thinks he's god and goes into a classroom behaving like a Prussian Drill Instructor. In this case, you deserve the treatment you are getting. > I threw these > students out of class. That served to reinforce my reputation with the > students who did care. This does not reinforce your reputation except as being a tightwad. The students do not care what you think of them, they just care about being able to attend the class and perhaps learn somthing if Tsar Charli will let them. > As a result, I had fewer discipline problems > than most substitutes. (Most of them tried not to throw students out, > knowing the severe penalties. I threw any kid out who challenged my > authority in any way, immediately.) Yes, Charli, but I would bet that your students learned a *lot* less than they would have with other substitutes. It is difficult to learn when faced with substitutes who behave like Iranian religious fanatics. > > NOT TAKING CRAP only works if the kid has some reason to care what the > teacher thinks. A second grader may fear the disapproval of the teacher > (and that's what NOT TAKING ANY CRAP boils down to). Older kids don't. > Therefore, you have to have something else. Either corporal punishment, > or expulsion, or *something*. > That *something* is making them have some reason to care about what you think. If you don't seem as if you care about what they think, why should they care about what you think? The substitutes that I've had that have taught with a minimum of friction are those who care about what the students think about them and are willing to treat them like human beings. > I think the *biggest* reason we're now having teacher shortages is not > pay, although that's part of it. I'm not a teacher because I wasn't > willing to put up with the students who were abusive, disruptive, and > who weren't going to change just because I wouldn't put up with it. I'm still a student because I don't have to put up with teachers who are abusive, disruptive, and who aren't going to change just because I wouldn't put up with it. I think I have to add that my responses are only appropriate for my environment. I attend a high school where a large number of students are trying to get into places like Stanford, UC Berkeley, UC Davis, Harvard, UCSD, UCLA, etc. The administration usually allows you to transfer classes due to friction with teachers, and teachers are semi-officially evaluated on how well they minimize friction with the students. Dave Long -- {hplabs,fortune,idi,ihnp4,tolerant,allegra,tymix}!oliveb!long