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From: mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks)
Newsgroups: net.legal
Subject: ACLU
Message-ID: <1083@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 3-Sep-85 07:22:37 EDT
Article-I.D.: sphinx.1083
Posted: Tue Sep  3 07:22:37 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 4-Sep-85 06:46:03 EDT
Organization: U Chicago -- Linguistics Dept
Lines: 79


> I am aware that some people may oppose the extreme views taken by the ACLU.
> A recent article pointed out a few of these. (ie. Nazi's free speech,
> Christmas displays and the Establishment Clause)  However, the arteicle
> made reference to In Re Walter Polovchak.  Please add more about this case.
>
>                                                Mark Reina

Just to clarify things: I provided that list, but not in the spirit of
complaint.  There *was* a complaint against the ACLU, and I was urging
that we discuss it; but I pretty much agree with ACLU positions.  The
list was just my guess at some of the things that might be bothering the
person who posted the complaint, or others who don't much like the ACLU.

The Walter Polovchak case is the second one mentioned below by Ray Frank.


> From: ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank)
> Here in Rochester the ACLU prevented the police dept. from issuing good
> driving tickets to motorists deserving them.  It was only a good will drive
> by the police dept.,  but the ACLU said it was unconstitutional.

I don't understand it exactly, and maybe they were being silly, but in
any case we need more information.  were the police _stopping_ cars to
give these good-driver citations?  Did they stop a car for this purpose and
then search it?  Did the good-driver citations carry any cash value, or
special deals on your next violation (sounds weird, but who knows)?  I'm
not sure how each of those questions (or others) would affect the issue,
but let's find out before plunging into a hypothetical debate.

> When that 15 yr. old Russian boy wanted to stay in America and not leave the
> country with his parents several years ago, the ACLU said he must go back.

The issue under which ACLU handled this, I believe, was family relations
and parents' rights.  Their position was not that he must go back, but that
the U.S. government and the state of Illinois must not prevent his parents
from taking him back.  The effect is much the same, of course, but the
issue may be clearer when you see it the way it was posed.

It's accepted that sometimes the government is entitled to step in and
meddle with family affairs, e.g. child abuse, and custody.  But they
certainly shouldn't be able to do that whenever they want to.  If you
were moving from one state to another, and your 14-year-old wanted to
stay behind, you wouldn't want the state police to guard him, and the
Governor to issue special documents (not normally available to minors)
to help him stay behind.  That was the crux of the Polovchak case.

BTW, he's just about to turn 18.  The ACLU, having won these cases and
helped shore up the principle of parents' rights, is not objecting to
see Walter file applications for citizenship etc _as_an_adult_ and get
to stay after all.

That principle is more or less the one being expressed by these posters:


> What about parents who don't believe in corporal punishment
> for their children? I have spanked our four-year-old twice
> so far, only as a last resort and after many warnings, but
> I don't want anyone other than my wife and me to dole out
> spankings. That is my job.
                              [Todd Jones]

> Anyone that spanks or paddles my kid in school or anywhere without
> my permission is going to incur my wrath, I don't care what the reason.
>
> One of my most difficult responsibilities as a parent is knowing when to
> inflict physical punishment upon my children.  It is certainly a
> responsibility that I would never entrust to strangers or even our closest
> friends.
              [Ned Robie]

These parents make a lot of sense to me.  (And do you think that deciding
what country the family will live in is a less serious matter?)


-- 

            -- Mitch Marks @ UChicago 
               ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmar