Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/3/84; site teddy.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!teddy!lkk
From: lkk@teddy.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.kids,net.legal,net.politics
Subject: Re: corporal punishment in schools
Message-ID: <1246@teddy.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 3-Sep-85 16:42:29 EDT
Article-I.D.: teddy.1246
Posted: Tue Sep  3 16:42:29 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 5-Sep-85 02:30:50 EDT
References: <2149T3B@psuvm> <658@rduxb.UUCP> <1214@teddy.UUCP> <14@unc.unc.UUCP>
Reply-To: lkk@teddy.UUCP (Larry K. Kolodney)
Organization: GenRad, Inc., Concord, Mass.
Lines: 80
Xref: watmath net.kids:1860 net.legal:2257 net.politics:10799
Summary: 

In article <14@unc.unc.UUCP> fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) writes:
>In article <1214@teddy.UUCP> lkk@teddy.UUCP (Larry K. Kolodney) writes:
>>	Discipline based on fear is worse than no discipline at all.
>
>How did you arrive at this conclusion?  School children have been
>disciplined with fear for generations.  It didn't do much for their
>creativity, but they did learn the basic skills.  With no discipline,
>students learn nothing at all.
>

And for generations, schoolchildren have been violent, and repressed, and have
developed moral codes based on avoidance of punishment.  Our entire screwed
up world/society reflects these influences.

I do not advocate no discipline.  As a previous poster mentioned, the
best discipline requires no threats.  An excellent teacher commands the respect 
of students merely by showing that he/she is of high quality and thus is
worthy of respect.

The best form of discipline is self-discipline.  The good teacher should be able
to instill this in students by teaching them WHY discipline is good, not only
THAT it is good.

An analogy can be made between a good teacher and a good government.  In
governments that command that respect of their citizenry, heavy handed tactics
are usually uneccesary to enforce the law.  Thus, in western democracies, the
state tends to be relatively liberal with respect to human rights.  In
governments which have not earned the respect of their citizenry (USSR,
Nigeria), the government must use "corporal punishment".  And in those
countries, people become cynical and opportunistic, seeing avoidance of
punishment as the only impediment to crime.




>Would you also apply your assertion to the criminal justice system?
>Is it better to allow unrestricted crime, rather than threaten potential
>criminals with retaliation (prison)?
>

I oppose Corporal Punishment or Capital Punishment in the prison system.
I favor seeking ways to eliminate the need for detention as well, but 
unfortunately, detention is the only short term solution to violent crime
probelems.  The need for detention will go down when the level of respect goes
up.  that respect has not been earned in certain sectors of our society.




>>	My mother teaches second grade in one of the nastier areas of the
>>	Bronx, in New York City.  She maintains order by letting the
>>	students know, in no uncertain terms, that she will be fair with
>>	them, but NOT TAKE ANY CRAP.  She has their respect, and
>>	never resorts to corporal punishment (which is illegal).
>
>What would she do with a student who INSISTED on "giving her crap",
>so as to make a reputation with the other kids by being more powerful
>than the teacher?  Bluffing may work with second graders, but it won't
>work with older students.  Furthermore, once the students realize
>the teacher's stern demeanor is only a bluff, it won't work anymore
>with anybody.
>

Students are still subject to disciplinary action other than corporal
punishment.  In the worst case, expulsion is a remedy.

The key to my mother's discipline system is not a stern demeanor.
Its essence lies in her ability to level with students.  Letting them know
that they are there to learn, and  being honest with them as to the results of
their behavior, cause them to respect her as a person.  They respect her because
she respects them.



-- 

Sport Death,
Larry Kolodney
(USENET) ...decvax!genrad!teddy!lkk
(INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa