Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site sphinx.UChicago.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth From: beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) Newsgroups: net.origins,net.religion,net.religion.christian Subject: Re: The true God lives in the real world Message-ID: <1092@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> Date: Wed, 4-Sep-85 15:17:14 EDT Article-I.D.: sphinx.1092 Posted: Wed Sep 4 15:17:14 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 5-Sep-85 20:12:28 EDT References: <304@pyuxn.UUCP> <2137CJC@psuvm>, <397@scgvaxd.UUCP> Organization: U. Chicago - Computation Center Lines: 164 Xref: watmath net.origins:2296 net.religion:7530 net.religion.christian:1206 [Take me, but please, I beg you, spare the rest] Well, I've been arguing the other side too long now, might as well switch for a while. From: dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich), Message-ID: <396@scgvaxd.UUCP>: > The Apostle Paul considered it an honor to suffer for Him. Paul said > it brought him closer to Christ when he suffered. Peter said much the > same thing. I think Paul Zimmerman would agree with you that suffering brings you closer to Christ, since he believes that (anti)Christ encourages suffering. > Millions have suffered and died for Him. Why? Yeah. Why? Why would an omnipotent, loving God ask humans, his own creation, to suffer and die for *anything*, let alone for his own glory? Do you have kids? Would you ever even *consider* asking them to be persecuted, tortured or killed just to glorify *you*? Wouldn't rather suffer the consequences of people disbelieving you than ask your own children to be killed? I would, and I think most parents would. So why does God think it's better for Christians to be tortured and killed than to renounce Christ for a coupla minutes? > Because they > had truly experienced His love, joy, and peace. These things are worth > giving up world possessions and even life. That is why James can say, > "Consider it all joy when you go through various trials!" These trials > and suffering can cause us to seek Gods love and comfort in such a way > that we never would have had our life been a bed of roses! But if a loving, omnipotent God created us, why didn't he create us such that we could experience his love and comfort all the time? Isn't that what most loving parents wish for their children - that they be happy, loving people, and that they experience the absolute minimum necessary tribulation? Human parents aren't omnipotent, they have to work within the current structure of the universe. But the Creator is supposed to be the Creator of *all*, even of the structure of the universe. So if he really was a loving God, why did even create the possibility of pain and suffering? > I believe > David said, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted!" Why? For > the reasons I just said. Paul said, "...that I might know the FELLOWSHIP > of His suffering." Same question. Why does it take suffering to know fellowship? > Have you suffered as much as God has, MR. Z? To leave His place in glory > and become human flesh only to be tortured, ridiculed, and killed by > His own children, can hardly be compared to the suffering most of us > have gone through. Yet there is another difference. We deserve it! He > didn't! *Why* do we deserve it? Because this loving, omnipotent God said so, that's why. We were disobedient, so he's going to make us *pay* for it. When you're child disobeys, you might possibly spank her/him. But you don't put an eternal curse on him/her and all of her/his descendants, such that whenever they give birth they go through pretty ultimate agony, or such that they can no longer communicate with each other (Tower of Babel) and end up loathing each other. If you have limited powers, you try to explain why their disobedience could hurt them and it's really in their best interests to listen to you. If you're omnipotent, why the hell don't you just make it so they don't get hurt at all, and are still functional, productive, loving, happy children? If God's omnipotent and created *everything*, then pain and suffering are part of the plan. > I bought my wife a little plaque about a year ago! I couldn't resist it > because it said these words which immediately struck my heart: > > "I asked Jesus (God) how much He loved me; He said, 'This much!' Then He > streched out His hands and died!" I trust you love your wife, and I trust she loves you. Why would you choose to die, to separate yourself from her and her from you? Humans are (have been created) weak - we have doubts sometimes, fears sometimes. Why would you test her faith that you were not destroyed, knowing the faith will slip sometimes, that sometimes she'll be afraid and unsure and in pain because of your separation? Why don't you just stay with her and let both of you rejoice in your love for each other? From: dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich), Message-ID: <397@scgvaxd.UUCP>: >In article <2137CJC@psuvm> CJC@psuvm.BITNET writes: >>Before dismissing this idea, reread the biblical account of the plagues >>in Egypt; my copy states repeatedly: >> >> "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let them go." >> >> Why not? Read Exodus 10: v.1-2 >> >> "Then the Lord said to Moses "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened >> his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs >> of mine among you, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and >> of your son's son how I have made sport of the Egyptians "" > > Can you imagine Moses' dismay if God would have told him to go to > Pharoah and demand the release of his people and Pharoah would have > told Moses to go fly a kite! And could imagine Moses' delight if God had told him to go to Pharoah and demand the release of his people and Pharoah would have said "Ok, sure." Why fuss around? God was obviously mucking around with Pharoah's heart anyway, but he was hardening it! Why not just soften his heart? Because that would mean he was interfering with Pharoah's free will? Apparently not: > The fact that God hardened Pharoah's heart doesn't release Pharoah > from responsibility for his own actions. This is an old theological > debate from way back. Can free will and God's sovereignty both exist > at the same time. The answer is YES! So why not *soften* Pharoah's heart? >> Then read the Book of Job and consider the deaths of Job's seven sons >>and three daughters and of his very many servants - struck down not for >>any fault of their's, but merely for a petty show of power. > > You haven't read the book of Job or you would understand the valuable > lesson that Job learned from all of it. And what lesson would possibly be worth the lives of ten innocent children and several other innocent people? If an American citizen, who has limited power to influence people, resorted to flat out murder of her/his grandchildren just to teach his own child a lesson, s/he'd be offerred the death sentence. And ten-to-one YOU'D say it was the work of the devil. So why is it ok for any God, who has unlimited power to teach, to do the same thing? And why on earth (in heaven) is it ok for a *loving* God to do it? Murder of innocent people is murder of innocent people, and there's no excuse for it. > I am sure that those who died from the earthquake > who were truly children of God were not the slightest bit upset > when they woke up in His wonderful presense! Jim Jones thought that too. Jim Jones was a crazed destructive lunatic. > If the God of the Bible exists, I would truly want to belong to > Him. For I have never seen such an act of love as that which He > demonstrated. > > "Herein is God's love demonstrated; In that while we were yet sinners, > Christ died for us!" Romans 5:8 There are a lot of parents who have died trying to save their children from burning houses, burning cars, raging rivers, .... There are any number of people (firefighters, police officers and just regular folks) who have lost their lives saving total strangers. That's pretty darn loving. And I doubt seriously any of them have ever let their children be killed just because their children were loyal to them, or destroyed entire cities that didn't do what they wanted. According to God's own commandments, they've got a better track record than God does. Do you worship them? There *are* some troubles believing in a loving, omnipotent God. -- --JB (Beth Christy, U. of Chicago, ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth) "Oh yeah, P.S., I...I feel...feel like...I am in a burning building And I gotta go." (Laurie Anderson)