Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!ucbvax!mcgeer From: mcgeer@ucbvax.ARPA (Rick McGeer) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion Subject: Re: "Secular Humanism" banned in the US Schools. Message-ID: <10347@ucbvax.ARPA> Date: Tue, 10-Sep-85 16:21:28 EDT Article-I.D.: ucbvax.10347 Posted: Tue Sep 10 16:21:28 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 11-Sep-85 07:35:09 EDT References: <1072@ulysses.UUCP> <607@hou2g.UUCP> <11384@rochester.UUCP> <314@rruxo.UUCP> <11464@rochester.UUCP> Reply-To: mcgeer@ucbvax.UUCP (Rick McGeer) Organization: University of California at Berkeley Lines: 65 Xref: watmath net.politics:10896 net.religion:7586 In article <11464@rochester.UUCP> ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) writes: >Has it ever occured to any of us that this country really IS a religious/ >christian country and should be coined as such to the extent that Iran is >considered a Muslim country, No, thanks. Last time I looked Iran was governed by a bunch of mullahs. Now, the time may come when the United States is governed by a clergyman, but I would hope that the Constitution of the United States would not demand that the nation be governed by the Christian equivalent of the Imam. > >If one looks at the founding fathers, they would find many instances of the >them refering to not only the constitution but also to God for wisdom in >guiding the country. If one looks at the founding fathers, one finds mostly Deists, and at least one Rosicrutian (Franklin). Not a good argument for your case. You might cite Washington's Farewell Address, in which Washington cites religion as necessary for the public morals. >When the president takes the oath of office he says: >"So help me God." Each day congress begins it's session with the Lord's >prayer. Behind the Supreme court bench is a huge plaque with the Lord's >prayer on it. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address mentions God. Christmas is >very much a national holiday. On all our currency is 'In God We Trust.' This is actually one of the fundamentalists' better arguments: namely, that the public schools are not permitted the access to prayer of the US Congress. > >Would it be religious tyranny for the federal government to take a stand on >religious issues? What on earth would be the point of that? I don't know about you, but I have a hard time imagining anything more absurd than a US Government pronouncement on a religious or theological issue. What do you want the government to say? What effect would it have? And, assuming that the influence of the US Congress on the divine is about as great as the influence of any of the rest of us, why on earth would anyone care? If the federal government has nothing better to do than deliver itself of religious opinions, then it occurs to me that we would be far better served if the Congress packed up and went home until they found something better to do. >Has religious tyranny existed in this country? The seper- >ation of church and state I believe originally meant that people would have >the freedom to worship as they pleased without government oppression. I >don't believe it meant the exclusion of government in declaring itself to be >of a religious faith if it thought itself as much. Say what? A government doesn't think, and doesn't have a religious faith. The people who make up it might each have a religious faith, but that doesn't mean the same thing. >differently would be singled out or somehow alienated. I don't think so. The >Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects all the people the same as it >protects members of the Nazis or Communist party even though these people in >principle don't agree with and in some cases would like to abolish our form >of government. The point is not whether people would be alienated, but the proper role of the state in the affairs of the nation. The purpose of government is to prevent foreign invasion and to set the boundaries of conduct in public affairs. Period. Neither of these functions require any theological discourse from the state, and as a result I would prefer that the government not indulge in any. -- Rick.