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From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion
Subject: Re: "Secular Humanism" banned in the US Schools.
Message-ID: <738@cybvax0.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 9-Sep-85 12:14:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: cybvax0.738
Posted: Mon Sep  9 12:14:36 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 11-Sep-85 07:38:55 EDT
References: <1072@ulysses.UUCP> <607@hou2g.UUCP> <11384@rochester.UUCP> <314@rruxo.UUCP> <11464@rochester.UUCP>
Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 73
Xref: watmath net.politics:10900 net.religion:7588
Summary: 

In article <11464@rochester.UUCP> ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) writes:
> Has it ever occured to any of us that this country really IS a religious/
> christian country and should be coined as such to the extent that Iran is
> considered a Muslim country, or Russia is considered an atheist country (no 
> offense intented to the people of Russia who are religious, but this is the
> official teaching line of the communist party).

Has it ever occured to you, Mr. Frank, that this country really IS a white
country and should be coined as such?  I hope not.

> If one looks at the founding fathers, they would find many instances of the
> them refering to not only the constitution but also to God for wisdom in
> guiding the country.  When the president takes the oath of office he says:
> "So help me God."  Each day congress begins it's session with the Lord's
> prayer.  Behind the Supreme court bench is a huge plaque with the Lord's
> prayer on it.  Lincoln's Gettysburg Address mentions God.  Christmas is
> very much a national holiday.  On all our currency is 'In God We Trust.'

If one looks at the founding fathers, you would also find many instances
of them referring to black slaves.  Should our currency read "in white male
landowners we trust"?

References to the Christian god in politics are necessary to pander to the
ignorance and bigotry of Christians who assume whoever beats his breast
the loudest and most piously is the better candidate.

> Would it be religious tyranny for the federal government to take a stand on
> religious issues?

Would you feel it to be tyranny if our government took the stand that it was
a Moselem or Atheist government?  Many of us feel a declared christian
government would be tyrannous.

> Has religious tyranny existed in this country?

Of course.  To varying degrees.

> The seperation of church and state I believe originally meant that people
> would have the freedom to worship as they pleased without government
> oppression.  I don't believe it meant the exclusion of government in
> declaring itself to be of a religious faith if it thought itself as much.

The founding fathers clearly intended both meanings, having seen the abuses
then prevalent in Europe.  For example, if you are going to declare the US
to be Christian, which sect?  What's Christian?  Are Morman's Christian?
(Please let's not debate that last here-- it is meant as an illustrative
example of a controversial subject.)

> Some people would make the
> claim that if our government took a stand on religion that those who believed
> differently would be singled out or somehow alienated.  I don't think so.  The
> Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects all the people the same as it
> protects members of the Nazis or Communist party even though these people in
> principle don't agree with and in some cases would like to abolish our form
> of government.

The same way as the Constitution has protected blacks and other minorities
from discrimination, bigotry, and racial hatred?  Should we declare this to
be a white country, but we tolerate the niggers?

> One final thought, if the Government declared this country to be founded on
> the beliefs that upset some people, would those people have a legitimate right
> to claim that this declaration was unconstitutional because of a violation of
> their rights?

People have a constitutional right to make almost any claim they like.
How would this declaration be made?  President Reagan has made it: it has no
force of law.  If it is enacted as a law by Congress, there is a constitutional
right to find it unconstitutional.  If it is a constitutional ammendment,
then there is a constitutional right to change the constitution back.
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh