Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!ucbvax!mcgeer From: mcgeer@ucbvax.ARPA (Rick McGeer) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: "Secular Humanism" banned in the US Schools. Message-ID: <10364@ucbvax.ARPA> Date: Wed, 31-Dec-69 18:59:59 EDT Article-I.D.: ucbvax.10364 Posted: Wed Dec 31 18:59:59 1969 Date-Received: Fri, 13-Sep-85 04:35:34 EDT References: <1072@ulysses.UUCP> <607@hou2g.UUCP> <11384@rochester.UUCP> <314@rruxo.UUCP> <11463@rochester.UUCP> <10334@ucbvax.ARPA> <743@cybvax0.UUCP> Reply-To: mcgeer@ucbvax.UUCP (Rick McGeer) Organization: University of California at Berkeley Lines: 101 In article <743@cybvax0.UUCP> mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) writes: >[Cross-postings eliminated: who needs them?] > >In article <10334@ucbvax.ARPA> mcgeer@ucbvax.UUCP (Rick McGeer) writes: >> In short, my friends, the real trouble is not what the public schools >> teach, it's that there are public schools. It's absurd to expect that a >> homogenous institution can faithfully serve a diverse society. Why not >> permit people to send kids to the school of their choice, within certain >> (rudimentary) guidelines, and give them vouchers that can be redeemed by the >> school for a (fixed) amount of cash? If the school wants to charge more, that >> comes out of the parent's pocket. But this way, every kid gets educated, at >> the school of his parent's choice. And you people can choose the school that >> is right for you instead of fighting over the shape of the one you have. > >One of the stong points of our society is that there is as much homogeneity >as there is now. I'm not in favor of reducing it by segregating children >into idiologically pure institutions. There's a great deal of value to be >learned by exposure to the variety within our culture: that is one of the >important homogenizing factors, that which makes us a melting pot. Harumph. You, in short, argue that (1) homogeneity is a good thing; and (2) the public school system promotes homogeneity. Leaving aside the first as a questionable value judgement, do you have any evidence whatever for the second? For example, at what period in the history of the Republic has the population been most homogenous? Were there public schools then? (Be careful there haven't been public schools for our entire history: indeed, James Madison warned our first Congress that the passage of a minor tax measure might, someday, lead to "the poisoning of our childrens' minds" (in short, public education). In California, schoolchildren (in the public schools!) are segregated by language groupings. It is now possible, in California, to receive much of a public education (all of grade school, I think, and a fair amount of high school) in Spanish and Chinese. Does this promote your vaunted homogeneity? Further, one could argue that since the United States is largely Christian of one denomination or other -- as it is -- then the homogeneity of the Republic would be best served if the public school system promoted the practice of Christianity. > >The number of "objectionable" things taught in public schools is extremely >small. There are already two established routes for those with objections: >private schools, and "sunday" schools. My RC parish provided free schooling >on saturdays in RC beliefs for those students who didn't pay to go to their >regular school. Oh, good. So Catholics have the option of paying for a school system they don't use, as well as the one they do. In effect, this option exists only for the rich. If you don't like the public system, and you're rich, it's a little out of your pocket but, hey, your kids are worth it. If you're poor, tough. Send the brats to public school, and never mind what you think of it. Somehow I expected a leftwinger to come up with a proposal that sounded a little more elevating. > >Finally, I view public standards for schools (including private schools) >as an important check on the power of parents in favor of the rights of >their children. Frankly, I consider some of the indoctrination and >practices at some private schools as illegitimate as sexually abusing >your own children. WHO ASKED YOU? WHO ASKED THE STATE? By what right, dammit, do you presume to judge my choice of education for my kids? Who has the stronger motive to ensure that my kids are well-educated? You, who have never met them: some damned social worker, who cares more about her paperwork than my kids' future? Or me? This is the most annoying aspects of statism, and the most annoying claims of statists: we know what's better for you, or your kids, than you do. Shut up and let Big Brother worry about it. What do you mean, you don't have a choice? You're one of 100 million voters, aren't you? The really galling thing is that the rich don't have to put up with this crap. They can buy their way out of it, in one of a hundred ways. No, strike that. It's not galling that the rich don't have to put up with it. It's that the poor and the middle class do, and that they're put through the wringer day after day because -- get this -- oterhwise, the poor wouldn't be able to afford X. >For this reason, I'm not enthusiastic about encouraging >private schooling. I'd much rather see tools for enforcement of quality >in public education (such as successful suits against school districts >that provide poor education overall, just as suits have been successful >for segregation.) >-- Oh, great idea. Now a lawyer and a judge is going to determine the quality of education? I'd sooner trust the bureaucrats. Why do you believe that the court system will have any ameliorative effect on education? Has court action done anything to increase the integration of school systems? In Philadelphia, perhaps, where a school system that was 40% minority is now 70% minority as white parents sent their kids to private school? And, by the way, with the white kids in private school, how do you think school bond issues do? The only quality assurance scheme that works is a free market. In either NH or Vt, the schools are on a voucher system -- costs are half that of the national norm, and the students do very well on the SATs. -- Rick.