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From: berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion
Subject: Re: USA: a religious country?
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Date: Tue, 10-Sep-85 13:52:49 EDT
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Posted: Tue Sep 10 13:52:49 1985
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> This subject may not belong here, and it may stur up a hornets nest, but so
> does secular humanism so here goes.
> Has it ever occured to any of us that this country really IS a religious/
> christian country and should be coined as such to the extent that Iran is
> considered a Muslim country, or Russia is considered an atheist country (no 
> offense intented to the people of Russia who are religious, but this is the
> official teaching line of the communist party).
> 
> If one looks at the founding fathers, they would find many instances of the
> them refering to not only the constitution but also to God for wisdom in
> guiding the country.  When the president takes the oath of office he says:
> "So help me God."  Each day congress begins it's session with the Lord's
> prayer.  Behind the Supreme court bench is a huge plaque with the Lord's
> prayer on it.  Lincoln's Gettysburg Address mentions God.  Christmas is
> very much a national holiday.  On all our currency is 'In God We Trust.'
> 
> Would it be religious tyranny for the federal government to take a stand on
> religious issues?  Has religious tyranny existed in this country?  The seper-
> ation of church and state I believe originally meant that people would have
> the freedom to worship as they pleased without government oppression.  I
> don't believe it meant the exclusion of government in declaring itself to be
> of a religious faith if it thought itself as much.  Some people would make the
> claim that if our government took a stand on religion that those who believed
> differently would be singled out or somehow alienated.  I don't think so.  The
> Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects all the people the same as it
> protects members of the Nazis or Communist party even though these people in
> principle don't agree with and in some cases would like to abolish our form
> of government.  In order not to have words put in my mouth by Rosen I hereby
> state that I do not equate Nazis or Communists with any other group of people.
> One final thought, if the Government declared this country to be founded on
> the beliefs that upset some people, would those people have a legitimate right
> to claim that this declaration was unconstitutional because of a violation of
> their rights?
  
There is a difference between being tolerated and having different rights.
As I understand you, you claim that the Constitution professes the belief
in God, and so an atheist does not follow the letter and spirit of the
Constitution.  
There is much more at stake than "upsetting some people".  If you want
to construe that the Constitution implies belief in God, then uphelding
the Constitution implies believing in God.  Shall all the atheist who
sworn to upheld the Constitution be fired from their jobs?
If I understand correctly the words
   this country really IS a religious/christian country [as] Iran is
   (...) a Muslim country, or Russia is (...) an atheist country ...
then the answer is yes.  Is it what you want?  Or a school prayer
uttered by atheist children?  
Hopefully, more sane reading of the Constitution will prevail.  
If Founding Fathers would want the country to be religious/Christian, they
would not leave such an important principle implicit.  
As far as the God in public schools is concerned, this principle is at
stake: shall the Government imply to children that a patriot must believe
in God?  And, by corollary, that atheists are not?  

Piotr Berman