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From: berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Newsflash! [Subsidized Education]
Message-ID: <1766@psuvax1.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 4-Sep-85 23:11:46 EDT
Article-I.D.: psuvax1.1766
Posted: Wed Sep  4 23:11:46 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 5-Sep-85 14:42:39 EDT
References: <955@umcp-cs.UUCP> <1110@umcp-cs.UUCP>
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Organization: Pennsylvania State Univ.
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> In article <1756@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes:
> > ...  Martin referred to Western Europe, obviously.
> >Over there state has much larger role in the economy than in US. 
> >...
> >  JoSH loves to equate non-libertarians with communists.  He claims that
> >liberals believe in slavery.  But since Canada of France do not look
> >sufficiently "dehumanized", he jumps at once to Eastern Europe.  
> >  Piotr Berman
> 
> I believe that the extent of government intervention in the economy
> of the western european democracies, including the "socialist" ones
> such as Sweden and France, are quite comparable to the US levels,
> consisting of direct control of about 40% of the economy and a
> complex and pervasive web of regulations over the rest.  I have plenty
> of bones to pick with these "mixed economy" democracies, but the
> socialist ideals have considerably modified by realpolitik in practice
> (here and in Western Europe).  To judge the socialist ideals themselves
> we must look to places where they have been put into practice without
> distorting them over such minutiae as human rights.  Thus we must look
> further east.
> 
> I repeat:  The western democracies, American and European, represent
> ideological arenas where the actual policies are an amalgam of free-
> market and socialist ideals.  Socialists may not legitimately claim
> any credit for the ameliorative effect of the resistance to their
> programs.  The Eastern European countries are valid demonstrations
> of where those programs would lead without such resistance.
> 
> --JoSH

  What is the resistance JoSH is talking about?  Who was against mixed
economy in Western Europe?  Answer: fringe groups, that's all.
As somebody noticed, the speed of economical growth in years
after WWII in Western countries is larger than at any time before.
If the argument of JoSH would be valid, then the following would
be valid as well: if you do not like martini consisting of one big
block of ice + one drop of vodka then you should drink undiluted 
warm vodka.  
As a person who either drinks pure water or pure alcohol, JoSH would 
rely exlusively on the market.  In his argument, he equates 
democratic state, which incorporates checks and balances, with an 
undemocratic one, which doesnot.  His argument about the superiority 
of the free market assumes a one-sided picture of a human being: a 
profit maximizer.  This may suffice in short-range economical modeling, 
but fails when applied to a model of a complete political system.  
Group interests, antagonisms and power games will surface in any system.  
His belief that the market may be a sufficient moderator is just a 
wishful thinking.  His statement about detrimantal role of state in a 
mixed economy defies the unprecedent succes of the mixed economies.

Piotr Berman