Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84; site hpda.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!oliveb!hplabs!hpda!on From: on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Some Personal thoughts on coming to know God Message-ID: <1197@hpda.UUCP> Date: Wed, 4-Sep-85 13:41:34 EDT Article-I.D.: hpda.1197 Posted: Wed Sep 4 13:41:34 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Sep-85 04:45:49 EDT References: <88@decwrl.UUCP> <402@aero.ARPA> Organization: Hewlett Packard Co. Cupertino, CA. Lines: 111 In a recent posting aero!homeier writes >I just felt that this was one of the most heartwarming and open-hearted >letters I have read on this board. It reminded me that some of the most >appealing things we can say are just what has happened to us, and how in our >personal experience God has touched us. In this spirit, I would like to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ >of how they were saved, or rededicated their lives, or were filled with the >Spirit. I would suggest describing the experience mostly, although of >course it's fine to state the truths that became foundations in your life. >For some people it was a very quiet thing, and for others it was a dramatic >moment. But each one has a vitally important story to tell, because it was >that way that the Lord Jesus chose to reveal Himself to you, and we can all >profit by your sharing. To start things off, I'd like to describe the night >that changed my life. While it is true that this newsgroup is open for anyone to post their individual stories of spiritual discovery, I would like to point out that there IS a net.religion.christian and a net.religion.jewish, and that there has been some controversy in the past about excessive evangelising in this newsgroup by Zealous xtians. Inviting "all christians" to bombard this newsgroup with their personal stories is like inviting all the neighborhood kids in to play in someone elses pool. If there is anything more annoying than zealous true believers who feel mandated to testify about their brand of revealed dogma whether anyone wants to hear it or not then I don't know what it is. Why is it that its almost always Fundamentalist Xtian types who persist in this brand of psychic attack >I went to CalTech as an undergraduate in 1974, and heard about a Christian >fellowship of students there that some of my friends (and my roommate) >belonged to. I was suspicious of their motives, and did not go. >However, I couldn't help comparing the Christians I knew with the other >non-Christians on campus. I saw the Christians at least trying to love >people, however ineptly, whereas the non-Christians really didn't care at >all. First of all, you are dividing people up into two categories here, the "christians" (it really sounds like you mean the "born again varietyof these) and the "non-christians" (here it sounds like your saying if your not a born-again then your not a christian). You equate the evangelistic model with loving and every one else with not caring, I find it hard to take that it could be as simple as this. what you refer to as inept attempts at "loving" people I see as patronising and meddlesome behavior that infringes on my right to think for myself . I have had it up to my crown chakra with smug xtians who insist that if I don't live up to the code of their holy book then I will be held accountable by their God. It is admirable to believe deeply in the religious system of your choice , it is the height of ignorance to demand that everyone else believe as you do. I see the christian experience as a gigantic energy rip-off, guilt is heaped on the unsupecting believer by declaring that certain actions are sins (you don't need to make a sin out of things that people don't want to do) reinforcing a belief that human nature is inherently evil, and then provide an exit from the inevitable punishment that is threatened by letting you purchase your way out with your devotion or your cash or both. Now thats how I feel about it but I don't expect anybody else to accept my words as anything other than my opinion. (after a detailed account of your experience with your christian friends) >After this I thought, "Boy, there is something REAL here, which I didn't know >about before. This was no invention of a man, this happened to ME. And I know >I didn't make it up." So I started trying to find out what had happened. It Every ones deep spiritual experiences are sacred , and leave the individual with the impression you describe above. This is the backbone of ALL mystical experience... direct knowledge, direct energy current. The Shaman, the yogi the priest, the Monk All know what your talking about here, and christianity has begun to move out of the previous age's cattle car approach to ministry into the direct experience arena with the advent of the charismatic movement. Intense study of this aspect of spiritual life can and will lead you to "understand what happened" . Please be aware that the experience you describe is not unique , its not even unique to christianity. In fact any accomplished Magician or Hypnotist can take you through the same set of experiences under a multitude of guises. Many religious movements (often branded as cults) use the same methods to gather converts and the de-programming process that is required to break the conditioning that results has been a subject of controversy too lengthy to go into now (though I would love to start a discussion of it at another time) I understand that what you really want is to get out the "Good Word" to the heathen and thereby save them from damnation. The problem with this is that your logic in doing so is a closed loop with no place for points of view that are outside of your own trip. Your story was certainly well told and the elements of spiritual discovery orchestrated by a veritable symphony of testament designed to be inspiring to those who ardently seek solace from doubt and the purgatory of disbelief. However you left no room for the seekers who find their truth on the bank of a different river. I hope this response is recieved as a positive statemnt rather than just *flame* because I want to be clear that every one is entitled to their opinion . LUX.. on ################# ###################################### ###################### # ^ # # Owen Rowley # # # # / \ # # # # \ / # # / \ # # {ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on # # -- * -- # # / <@> \ # # # # / \ # # / \ # # # # # # ----------- # # # # Every Man and # # NIL # # "Nothing is TRUE..... # # Every Woman # # CARBORUNDUM # # Everything is PERMISSIBLE" # # Is A STAR # # ILLEGITIMO # # Hassan i Sabah # # Liber AL # ################# ###################################### ######################