Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site bbncc5.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!qantel!dual!lll-crg!seismo!bbnccv!bbncc5!sdyer From: sdyer@bbncc5.UUCP (Steve Dyer) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Religious question Message-ID: <159@bbncc5.UUCP> Date: Sun, 8-Sep-85 00:56:21 EDT Article-I.D.: bbncc5.159 Posted: Sun Sep 8 00:56:21 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 11-Sep-85 04:52:23 EDT References: <144@graffiti.UUCP> <57@bbncc5.UUCP> <811@aluxe.UUCP> <2112@burdvax.UUCP> <3574@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, MA Lines: 33 > I think > the idea that sin is passed on via the sexual act (and this seems to > be underlying the Immaculate Conception, as well as various other > modern Roman ideas) is a dangerous one. It fits in all too well with > the ideas of women as second-class citizens and sex as allowable only > for procreation (ideas which do border on the heretical). Excuse me, Chuck, but this "modern Roman" notion of "concupiscence" in the sexual act as being responsible for Original Sin in each person dates from Augustine, and in fact was explicitly rejected by the Council of Trent (though it still had currency among some Protestant Reformers.) It is absurd, if not downright insulting, to hear Protestants lambast the RC Church with creaky, contradictory allegations which have nothing whatsoever to do with modern practice. The dogma of Immaculate Conception lies more firmly on a particular notion of Original Sin as a lack of "sanctifying grace", which in Mary's role as the Mother of God, God would presumably not withhold. As you mention, this notion had appeared in the Church as early in the 15th century as a "pious doctrine", though not much attention was given it until early in the 19th century. I suppose one may react with dismay to the promulgation of the two Marian dogmas pronounced "excathedra", but we must realize that the mid-19th century and even the 1950's are, theologically and ecclesiastically, about as far away from the modern Church as, say, Augustine. Anyway, why are we arguing about Immaculate Conception when Mary's bodily assumption into heaven (excathedra pronouncement 2) makes even Roman Catholics embarassed? :-) -- /Steve Dyer {harvard,seismo}!bbnccv!bbncc5!sdyer sdyer@bbncc5.ARPA