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From: levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews and ISRAEL
Message-ID: <387@ttrdc.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 28-Aug-85 20:31:31 EDT
Article-I.D.: ttrdc.387
Posted: Wed Aug 28 20:31:31 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 31-Aug-85 03:29:48 EDT
References: <3780073@csd2.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T, Computer Systems Division, Skokie, IL
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In article <3780073@csd2.UUCP>, meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) writes:
>  NOTE :
>  Extracted from an article about "Jews and Israel",
>  including relations with South Africa.
>
>>...  This is aside from that if every Jew in America went to
>>Israel to stay the result would be one impossibly overcrowded "homeland."
>>     Daniel R. Levy   levy@ttrdc
>
>I beg to differ with you, on several levels.
>

Before I reply, I apologize for inclusion of the whole article in my followup,
which I do because I do not wish to give the impression of having edited out
what some might think is the crux of the issue.

>(1) The land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael, is referred to as "eretz tzvi", the land
>of (which is like a) deer. It looks small, but it is like the skin of a deer.
>Namely, while on the deer, the skin stretches to cover his whole body. Once the
>soul has been removed from the deer, the skin seems to shrink greatly; it
>cannot be stretched to fit the body that it once held.
>So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow
>the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how large)
                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>for then they embody the spirit of the land.  When Jews do not live there,
>it just cannot support many inhabitants. They will always struggle to find
>enough food, and may have to live like nomads, travelling from place to place,
>in order to survive. It is interesting to note that there are people  who live
>like that in Eretz Yisrael itself, today, in the here and now (i.e., this is
>fact; note the Bedouins).

Are you literally saying that there is something magical about us as Jews,
(even considering that we are chosen as we are for G-d's service) which allows
us to transcend, INDEFINITELY, physical limitations?  The zeal with which
Jewish people have populated Israel has led to developments not short of
miraculous (in terms of what man in general has found himself able to do if
he really tries) but there must be some upper limit unless G-d comes down
and changes the rules.  (Which if you are a fervid believer is not impossible.)

>
>(2) The British government imposed quotas on the number of Jews permitted to
>enter Israel, turning away many who had no place to go (e.g., during WWII,
>earlier, too) - a historical fact. Besides the reason of "not wanting to upset
>the Arabs, and not upsetting a 'balance' in the area, will the world say OK?"
>(terms we hear all too often from both sides of the Mediterranean), the British
>conducted a scientific study to determine just how many people could live in
>this area of land, given its natural resources, climate, etc. With the results
>of this study (a proper scientific study, as far as I have heard), the British
>could easily justify closing the borders of Israel to unwanted Jewish refugees.
>The land just could not support more than the paltry sum of approximately
>300,000 people. You just cannot overrun the place with hundreds of thousands
>more people, no less millions.
>Was this study correct ? Yes, and No.
>Yes : Scientifically, and with respect to any other nation (non Jewish), the
>land could not support more than the said 300,000.
>No : The land of Israel is not like all other lands. It is intrinsically tied
>to the Jewish people. When the Jewish people live in Israel, it can support any
>number of them, millions, too. (Today's Jewish population in Israel is about
>3 million, if I am not mistaken - 10 times as much as the British report said
>that it could hold !)
>

We can thank modern technology (such as economical solar seawater distillation)
for making this possible.  This was made possible in the zeal of Jewish
people who wanted to make Israel livable at almost any cost.  The Arab
people and Christians do not share that zeal, agreed.

The major bottleneck in densely populating a barren, desert area
such as much of Israel is, is (surprise) WATER.  Without water, you cannot
live very well; humans need fluids (our bodies are mostly water) and it's
kind of hard to grow food without it.  The Israeli government has wisely
declared ALL water in Israel a precious resource under sole control of the
government.  There are some aquifers there, sure, but nothing like the
plentitude of, say, the United States', and a dearth of freshwater lakes.
If you are going to try to turn Israel into a border-to-border Jewish
metropolis, you are going to have to come up with the water for it to drink,
wash, etc. with.  Maybe turn Israel into one giant solar still with people
living underneath?

>(3) Have any of you out there ever been to Israel ? Are you familiar with its
>topography ? Have you seen all those hills, everywhere (except on the coastal
>plain) ? Have you seen those cities/towns that exist and that are being built
>on those hills ? Empty, barren hills, unpopulated for years and years, full of
>big rocks, for miles and miles, as far as the eye can see. As you drive along
>the road, winding around the mountains, all you see are empty hills, or hills
>with recently built towns (read, settlements); and plenty of room to spare.
>One hill may be built up; the surrounding ones are still barren.
>
>Do not let the propaganda fool you into believing that all new settlements are
>built upon the ruins of old, established Arab villages, whose residents are
>being sent to live in delapidated refugee camps, under the friendly protection
>of that great arm of the world peace-maker and peace-keeper UNRWA (United
>Nations Relief and Works Association - or something similar).
>It is just not true. Just as my eyes have seen it, so can yours. And it is
>really a beautiful sight to see - pioneers, going out and building the land.
>It should sound quite familiar to the American ear - the spirit of hard working
>pioneers is what built this great country in which we live today (the USA).
>

Yes, there's lots of empty space in Israel.  That is not a bottleneck, agreed.

>(4) Concerning those empty, barren hills, on which cities are rising :
>The Talmud makes mention of a Jewish king who had established on each of 60
>hills, 60 cities - an enormous population. (I think that it may be found in
>Gittin, among the discussions of the destruction of the Temple.) When my father
>viewed these barren hills for the first time in his life last summer, he
>commented - now I can begin to understand how that king had such a great
>population living in these hills. The topography is such that you can build all
>the way up the hill, and all around, too. Picture a city with many apartment
>buildings (e.g., New York - I'm familiar with it). Picture these apartment
>buildings rising on a hill, on all sides of the hill. You can fit many more
>units on a hill than you can on a flat piece of land.
>
>I think that I have said enough. Not only would it not be impossible for all
>the Jews to fit into our homeland of Israel, there would be plenty of space
>left over for many more people.
>

Yes, the geography of a hill allows more to be built there than on the amount
of flat land which would exist if the hill were "sawed off."  There's more
surface area.  Again, room is not a bottleneck, agreed.  (4) supplements (3),
and is not a different argument.

>Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth

"Overcrowding" in the sense I expressed it should not just be interpreted to
mean "not enough space."  If Israel was Jewishly populated to the density of
New York City from border to border that would be well over the number of Jews
in the WORLD today, let alone America.  But due to the water limitation, that
is for practical purposes impossible.  (May I be proven wrong!  I hope it
becomes possible....)

If I have violated some spiritual tenet by opining in this way on this matter,
then may G-d (and the Jewish readers of the net) forgive me.  My intention was
to express a view of practicality, not of spirituality.

Daniel R. Levy
AT&T Computer Systems Division, Skokie