Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84; site ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!ucbvax!decvax!ittatc!ittvax!mls
From: mls@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Michael Schneider)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Message to non-ultraorthodox Jews re: fundraising
Message-ID: <474@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 4-Sep-85 08:12:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: ittvax.474
Posted: Wed Sep  4 08:12:17 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 5-Sep-85 10:52:53 EDT
References: <417@mhuxm.UUCP> <468@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP> <654@ihu1m.UUCP>
Organization: ITT-ATC, Shelton Ct.
Lines: 53

I am removing most of my comments to reduce reading and traffic on the net.
> In reply to my comments,
Yosi Hoshen raises a number of important points that must be answered:
> > In Israel, religious law governs segments of daily life....
> > It should be noted that the problem areas are those that
> > effect not the people involved, but their offspring. 
> 
> What right do the orthodox religionist have to determine the future
> of non-orthodox offsprings? 

The orthodox, in your opinion, may not have the right to tell you what to do.
BUT, if your offspring become orthodox, your actions would effect them.  Your
offspring would choose to live by the law of the Torah; yet, by your actions
it is highly possible that their lives could be limited.  In determining
your lifestyle, you have apriori limited your offspring's WITHOUT THEIR
CONSENT.
>   
> If civil marriage was available in Israel, there would not be problems
> with marriage and divorce  because of religious prohibitions.  The
> religionists would say that they could not marry those Jews who did 
> not get divorce according to the halacha.  My answer to this is;
> it is the religionist problem.   

It still does not solve the problem that I stated above.  It may be ok for you,
but will it be ok for your children.  In fact, you have stated the problem
better than I did.  There would be two classes of Jews in Israel: those that
followed Jewish law and those that didn't.  It is when these two classes 
mix (read think about getting married) that the real problems arise.  We have
seen the same situation occur in North America with at least four major groups
of Jews, each having different standards.  Here it remains a religious problem.
In Israel, it is, to some extent, political.  But, in the long run, it will
further divide the country.
> 
> The imposition of religion coercion laws by the religionists divides the
> country rather than unites it.  Many Israelis are sick and tired of the 
> religionists' attempts to shove religion down their throats.
> The resistance to religious coercion is especially strong among the
> more educated Israelis who form the technological and scientific
> backbone of the country.  A significant number of those people has
> left the country.  There are many factors for this emigration,
> religious coercion is one of them.  
> -- 

Having lived and traveled in a number of countries outside North America, one
thing has remained constant: the view to Jewish law.  People, as in North
America, have different views to practice: some keep the Shabbat, some don't;
some keep the laws of Kashrut, some don't; some keep the laws of family purity,
some don't.  However in all cases, the vast majority follow Jewish law in those
areas that will effect offspring.  Why? Because the adults realize that they
should not take actions that may effect their children.  They are acting in
a responsible manner.  

Michael L. Schneider