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From: mls@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Michael Schneider)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Message to non-ultraorthodox Jews re: fundraising
Message-ID: <477@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 9-Sep-85 10:29:24 EDT
Article-I.D.: ittvax.477
Posted: Mon Sep  9 10:29:24 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 11-Sep-85 05:36:51 EDT
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Organization: ITT-ATC, Shelton Ct.
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In response to my comments 

Joe Abeles writes (and I would like to thank him for his corrections):

>But seriously, can anyone deny that it is the existence of a group of
>people who believe in the power of Jewish law that creates the problems
>which Michael Schneider is talking about?  Therefore, the problem of
>the imposition of religious standards on couples and their offspring would
>vanish if these people, or at least these beliefs, would vanish.  Quod
>erat demonstratum:  it is a problem caused by Judaism, not by those who
>wish to ignore some arcane belief structure called Halacha.

and David Parter comments:

>I will make many decisions which will affect my offspring without their
>consent. Sorry. This is what happens to parents. 

>You have no right to tell me what to do because it might
>limit my children's ability to do what YOU want them to do. In fact, if I 
>told the orthodox that they were ruining their childrens' future chances
>of becoming tolerant reasonable human beings, they would be insulted and tell
>me to go to hell.  Well, if they tell me how to raise my (future) children,
>I  will (and do) tell them to go to hell. Orthodox judasim is valid. But
>it has no special rights to impose upon others.

I would like to first comment on David's statement.  He fails to draw a
distinction between reversable and irreversable actions.  If I were to
cut off my arm and put it through a meat grinder, there would be no chance
that my arm could ever be put back on; I could only have an imitation arm.
If I were to cut off the arm and go directly to a hospital, there is a good
chance I could still have the arm, but with some reduced function.  If I were
to only make a deep, nonfatal cut on the arm, the worst I could have would
be a scar.

So it is with the situations I mentioned above.  In the case of divorce, it
is like cutting off the arm and grinding it up.  The status of being a mumzer
can not be reversed.  In that case of conversion, it is like cutting off the
arm and taking it to so put back on.  If the conversion were done incorrectly,
it can still be corrected (by having it done again).  However, there is still
the truma of thinking you were Jewish and when it came down to the wire, you
were not.  The situation presented by David is like cutting deep into an arm.
The cut can be healed, there may be a scar, but the intolerance that he
suggests, if it is as deep as he says it is, can go away.  All I was saying was
don't close any doors to your children.

In reply to Joe I can only say the following:

The set of Jewish Laws has existed for over 2000 years.  The limited group of
people who follow these laws have a track record spanning the same time period.
The current non Orthodox movements are at best 200 years old.  We know that
the 'arcane belief structure called Halacha' has kept Jews together through
some rough times.  Until I see otherwise, I can not state that the newer
movements, with their relaxation or disregard of Halacha, will have the same
record.  I do not have the figures, so I am only making an opinion: the rate
of assimilation has been growing in the last 100 years, until today it is
a major problem.  Could it be that the rate is higher as the restrictions
of Halacha are relaxed.  One can only look at the record of the early Reform
movement, where, to make Jews more like everyone, Shabbat was *moved* to
Sunday.  

I do not want everyone to do and think as I do, just as I do not wish to
do and think as others.  All I have stated is that we do not do anything
that may cause irreversable situations.  

Michael L. Schneider