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From: oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Is feminism sexism by females?
Message-ID: <811@mit-vax.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 11-Sep-85 16:50:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: mit-vax.811
Posted: Wed Sep 11 16:50:57 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 14-Sep-85 05:41:45 EDT
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 55
Summary: generally, no...  but let's digress

>	I think *some* men, myself on occasion, mean a "whistle"
>	to be a compliment, AND NOTHING MORE. 
>				SJBerry
		     ------------------------------
    At the risk of sounding like a moralizing twit, I would not admit to
whistling at women.  However YOU mean it, it is  typically  the  opening
line to harassment, and the women of my acquaintance unanimously despise
(and fear) such behavior.  (Coincidentally, I wouldn't do it.)

    As  to  Jane Caputo's son getting whistles and comments from passing
women, he had the certainty of staying in control of the  situation,  no
fear  for  his  physical  safety,  and presumably A BASIC TRUST in those
women's goodwill and friendliness, no matter where  or  how  far  things
went.   (What would they do, rape and murder him, then leave his body by
the side of the road?)  I submit that women getting whistles have _none_
of those comforts.  In particular, they don't have the capitalized stuff
above, and that (not strength  or  physical  vulnerability)  is  at  the
center of the oppression and intimidation they face.
    By the way, such accounts  serve  as  partial  refutation  to  Sunny
Kirsten's  accusation,  that  men's conversations are interrupted by the
sight of an attractive woman, whereas the  reverse  doesn't  hold  true.
Presumably,  those  women  were  discussing  something else when he came
along.  Perhaps our  similarities  are  greater  than  our  differences.
(I don't even know whether it's something to hope for.)

    [Long,  long  ago,  when I was remotely close to physically fit, and
jogging on a hot summer day, I got similar treatment from some women  in
a car.  I felt rather complimented, then acutely embarrassed:  I was too
tired to do anything, even trade wisecracks or phone numbers.  (Now  I'm
more level-headed, but opportunity knocks not for alte kakkers.)]

>	If a man posted that article in response to a complaint by a
>	woman about a sexist ad, would he not get flamed to death as
>	an insensitive, testosterone-poisoned, "macho asshole"?
>
>	No,  Ms  Caputo,  generic men are not less offended by being
>	considered a  piece  of  meat,  even  if  one  weightlifting
>	teenager sees it as an ego boost.
>							Marcel Simon
		     ------------------------------
    Mais non, Mr. Simon, we don't do that kind  of  stuff  around  here.
Nor do I think Ms. Caputo is getting away with something for which a man
would be flamed.  [To death?]

    Though I won't disagree that  generic  men  are  offended  by  being
treated as meat, I think a critical difference lies in social realities:
Men do NOT get that kind of treatment from women.  Even if Master Caputo
got  it  as  a  come-on,  he  could  probably  expect  more  interesting
socialization had he and  they  stopped  than  the  female  analogue  of
"spread  'em."   My  feeling is that he was complimented on his physique
(and presumably the attention he paid to building it) and teased  for  a
taste of role reversal.  I don't tease or humor my meat, but perhaps you
are a rancher and know better.
-- 
Oded Feingold     MIT AI Lab.   545 Tech Square    Cambridge, Mass. 02139
OAF%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA   {harvard, ihnp4!mit-eddie}!mitvax!oaf   617-253-8598