Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site spar.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!spar!ellis From: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Newsgroups: net.philosophy Subject: Mind is Dead Message-ID: <557@spar.UUCP> Date: Tue, 1-Oct-85 09:38:14 EDT Article-I.D.: spar.557 Posted: Tue Oct 1 09:38:14 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 3-Oct-85 04:46:11 EDT References: <3518@decwrl.UUCP> <1451@pyuxd.UUCP> <661@psivax.UUCP> Reply-To: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA Lines: 60 >> Rational decision by a conscious mind. Sounds familiar. Oh yes.. >Me, I don't insist that the decision be rational. Only that it be made by >a conscious mind. [Frank Adams] We tend to agree, with certain reservations.. First, although I reject the strictly determinisitic tone of radical behaviorism (which insists all freedom is a subjective delusion), the potential truth of the thesis "mind is religion, behavior is science" seems to be an inescapable objective fact -- and, at a minimum, is a handy model of reality. Since the truth of any notion is dependent on the number of systems in which equivalent definitions can be formulated, forcibly tying free will to such a subjective notion as consciousness invalidates the potential objectivity of the notion. If and when behaviorist theories can reconcile themselves to spontaneity, I suspect that present day subjective entities may eventually become the concern of religious subcultures, like God. Secondly, if you have ever known any mentally ill or deficient people, it is probably clear that they ARE in fact conscious and quite aware, (in many cases excruciatingly so); however, it is usually their inability to rationally respond to certain accidental realities imposed by the society they were somehow supposed to conform to. If free will implies responsibility for one's actions (certainly not a Behaviorist idea), then such people, though conscious, are not typically said to make decisions of their free will, in any commonsense meaning, since their actions are not understood by society to be `rational'. These and other considerations lead me to prefer the notion expressed below: > Chuang Tzu: > Freedom derives from the abandonment of fixed goals, the dissolution > of rigid categories and launching out of the confines of self so > that one may respond anew to the totality of every new situation. > [Inner Chapters, AC Graham] The above does not explicitly mention conscious mind (or rationality), although those who wish can read into it the constant breaking free from the confines of one's limited subjective consciousness (or one's apparent powers of intellection). Furthermore, this definition would seem to be eminently satisfactory to any behaviorist who does not dogmatically oppose spontaneity -- `respond anew to .. every new situation' is quite objective, and thoroughly in agreement with the argument that freedom is impossible if one's present behavior is totally dependent on past experience or personal desires. Finally, Chuang Tzu captures the notion of freedom as the spontaneous creative power of the evolving mind. "We say that [a person] is autonomous -- and, so far as a science of behavior is concerned, that means miraculous" - BF Skinner -michael Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com