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From: mcgeer@ucbvax.ARPA (Rick McGeer)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion
Subject: Re: Schools and Churches (really 'support' for areligious moral codes)
Message-ID: <10425@ucbvax.ARPA>
Date: Thu, 19-Sep-85 00:00:31 EDT
Article-I.D.: ucbvax.10425
Posted: Thu Sep 19 00:00:31 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 20-Sep-85 04:55:17 EDT
References: <623@hou2g.UUCP> <5884@cbscc.UUCP> <1154@mhuxt.UUCP> <5906@cbscc.UUCP>
Reply-To: mcgeer@ucbvax.UUCP (Rick McGeer)
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 33
Xref: watmath net.politics:11067 net.religion:7692

In article <5906@cbscc.UUCP> pmd@cbscc.UUCP (unix-Paul Dubuc,x7836,1L244,59472) writes:
>A response to Jeff Sonntag:
>
>>> I have never seen any moral code that could be supported apart from
>>> some transcendent framework (religion).
>>
>>      But 'support' for a moral code, Paul, do you mean a *reason* for
>>following it?  (like:  God'll send you to hell if ya don't follow the rules!)
>>Why do you suppose that fear of punishment and hope for future reward are
>>the only adequate motivations humans could have for adhering to a moral 
>>code?  Is your opinion of human beings that low?
>
>No, I'm talking about reasons why we invoke a certain moral code and not
>another.  Why is it considered a crime to murder and steal, for example?
>I'm not talking about people's motives for obeying, those have nothing
>to do with whether or not the morals themselves are good.  I'm talking
>about the basis we have for saying that some practices are a crime and
>enforce that belief through our laws.  

	Paul continues to make the same point below.  Other Christians have
asked this question, at one time or another.  The conclusion that most draw
is that religion gives us the basis for our law.

	I disagree.  The primary purpose of government (I would argue the
sole purpose, but this debate has been going on in net.politics.theory for 
some time) is the protection of the lives and property of its citizens from
those who would take same by force.  If government does not enact and enforce
laws in the protection of its citizens, then it is sterile and useless, and
should be banished.  Hence the laws are not derived from any moral or religious
basis -- they are the very soul of the state, and failure to enact and enforce
such laws should and will be the end of the state.

					-- Rick.


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