Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site csd2.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!csd2!martillo From: martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Islamic Mystics - The Sufi Message-ID: <3630020@csd2.UUCP> Date: Mon, 23-Sep-85 10:56:00 EDT Article-I.D.: csd2.3630020 Posted: Mon Sep 23 10:56:00 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 25-Sep-85 10:49:33 EDT References: <547@scc.UUCP> Organization: New York University Lines: 136 /* csd2:net.politics / tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) / 12:26 am Sep 19, 1985 */ >None of the monotheistic religions are sexually egalitarian. Judaism >incorporates many discriminatory commandments and temple practices. >Christianity also incorporates discriminatory temple practices and has >historically been very sexist. I don't see Moslems as being qualitatively >different from Jews or Christians in this respect. There is a major dispute which exists among the various schools of Islamic Jurisprudence. The schools dispute whether cutting off a women's clitoris is wajib (required) or merely mustahab (commendable). Clitoridectomies are an anathema to Judaism. In the blessing after meals, men say: We thank you God, our Lord ... for your covenant (refers to circumcision) that you engraved in our flesh. Jewish law specifically prohibits Jewish women from saying this part of the blessing so that noone would ever make the error of thinking clitoridectomy is either required or even permitted in Judaism. >This goes for every criticism of Islam I have heard put forth; it always >comes down to seeing the mote in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the >plank in yours. Can anyone put forth a criticism of Islam which cannot be >paralleled in Judaism or Christianity? I doubt it very much, but am willing >to entertain (public) suggestions. Judaism neither prosyletizes nor requires war upon non-Jewish populations (except for a very few specific cases) nor requires humiliation of non-Jewish populations nor requires degradation of non-Jewish populations. All of these rather disgusting behaviors are intrinsic parts of Islam vis-a-vis non-Muslims and non-Muslim populations. For this reason the continued existence of Islam as a religious/political/social system is unacceptable in the world today. Now Don Steiny has made some specific claims about Sufism which require comment: >I suggested in one posting that it might be >worthwhile to try to understand Islam before making statements >about it. I in fact read `Arabic, come from an `Arabic speaking household, and my family had been under Muslim subjugation for ~1000 years. I am somewhat more qualified than Steiny to make comments on Islam. > I pointed out that it is a well developed world >religion, and that there are variety of practices and beliefs >that all are Islamic. The social system of ante-bellum South was well-developed and had many features that recommended it (unless of course was non-White). I do not understand Steiny's point. > I pointed out that the Shiites and >the Sunnites have had wars with each other, so one can >not necessairly quote a Shiite like Khomeni to form >opinions about the Sunnites. As a non-Christian I have little understanding of the differences between protestants and catholics which seem utterly trivial to me. The differences between Shiites and Sunnis are even less. With only minor qualification most statements one could make about Sunni Islam are applicable to Shiite Islam. > I pointed out that even >within the Shiites, there must be considerable divirisity, >because the Sufi's originated in Persia from the Shiite >branch of Islam. It was whole heartedly adopted by >the Sunnites too. At the early stage of development of Sufism, Persia was Sunni but Islamic mysticism continued to be practiced in Iran long after the nation became Shiite. > I am stunned to the highest degree by the Sufi. Their >beliefs are so compatible with contemporary thought that >it is like a mystical revelation to just find out about their >beliefs. It confronted me with assumptions that I did not >even know I had, and showed me plainly that the world >is far more rich than I will ever know. Outside of Math and Physics humans have had almost no new ideas over the past 3000-4000 years. No one should be surprised that some Sufi ideas sound similar to modern concepts. As for similarities to Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Daoism etc., Islam conquered and absorbed many peoples who practiced these belief system. No one should be surprised that some ideas from the earlier religions reappeared in Islam. Since Steiny is unable to read Sufic thought in original context or language he must be careful about the meaning he ascribes to some of the passages. ---------- Ordinary human love is capable of raising man to experience of real love. Hakim Jami (1414-1492) ibid. p. 95 ---------- Love becomes perfect only when it transcends itself-- Becoming One with its object; Producing Unity of Being. Hakim Jami (1414-1492) ibid. p. 95 I would guess the above refer to homosexuality (specifically catamitism and pederasty) but I do not have the original texts. There have been so Muslims that no one should be surprised that a few have been magnanimous. Some have been well-disposed towards non-Muslims and have conceded that non-Muslim approaches to God might be valid. Likewise Jefferson, a southern slaveholder could right that all men were created equal. As Jefferson never freed his slaves nor really took any serious action against slavery even though he was magnanimous, likewise I know of no Sufi who ever publically declared that treatment accorded to non-Muslims under Islamic law was improper and should be changed. In fact in many places, uprisings and pogroms directed against non-Muslims were incited at the Sufi lodges. This is particularly true in the case of the Sanussi in Libya who have been responsible for slaughtering many non-Muslims in Libya during the 19th and 20th century. The Ikhwan al-muslimun in Egypt which was responsible for assasinating Sadat also has origins in the Sufi lodges. Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com