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From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God and suffering
Message-ID: <2203@sdcc6.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 12-Sep-85 02:49:32 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2203
Posted: Thu Sep 12 02:49:32 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 18-Sep-85 03:34:56 EDT
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Xref: watmath net.religion:7671 net.religion.christian:1313
Summary: Christ on suffering

In article <389>, philip@gva04.DEC (Phil Ward DEC Geneva Mgmt. Science) writes:
> 
> 	It is ludicrous to say that suffering brings us closer to Christ. 
> The Bible tells us that Christ suffered for our sins in order that we might
> no longer suffer, and this illustrates the love of Christ for mankind. The 
> message that God enjoys the suffering of his children, which is implicit in 
> the teachings of the 'apostle' Paul and of the churches ever since, is 
> abominable. 
> 
Where in the message of Paul does it say that God 'enjoys' the
suffering of His people?  Paul talks about God reproving those whom He
loves (Hebrews 12:6), and he also talks about the example Christ set and
that it will most likely follow for us (II Cor 1:5,6) but no where does
God take pleasure from this suffering.  And where are you getting your
info from on Christ coming so that we might no longer suffer?  I'd like
to hear which verses you feel support this position.

> 	James said, "Consider it all joy when you go through various 
> trials!" Yes, but trials <> suffering. A trial is like a training which 
> enables us to rise in our spiritual evolution and come to know ourselves 
> more fully and more deeply, and thus to know God more fully. 

Trials don't have to equal suffering, but they can and often do.  Take
football practice for an example.  It too can be a training
which enables us to rise in our athletic evolution and come to know
ourselves more fully and deeply, but I'll tell you, it hurts.  It is
made up of lots and lots of pain.  Hard work, committment, sacrifice;
these things don't come without cost.  Peter talks about the testing of
our faith and how that produces righteousness.  But what is the testing
field?  It's this world and this world is full of pain and suffering.
Why would you think that our trials wouldn't include that when God's
own Son couldn't even escape it?
> 
> >> Paul said, "...that I might know the FELLOWSHIP of His suffering."
> 
> Paul was a fanatic and a sadist of the worst type. I cannot understand how 
> his writings found their way into a holy book like the Bible. The 
> fellowship of Christ lies in forgiveness and peace and harmony, not in 
> suffering.
> 
That is a strong statement that has little support in the actual
writings and life of the one you look to for support.  Christ warned his
disciples that they would have a hard road before them.  In Mathew
10:16-23, Christ prophesies about what life will be like following Him.
"Behold I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves ... But beware of
men for they will deliver you up to the courts and scourge you in their
synagogues."  You're correct in saying that in Christ there is peace,
but as Jesus says in John 16:33, "These things I have spoken to you
that in Me you may have peace.  In the world you have tribulation, but
take courage, I have overcome the world."  There is no denying that
Christ's message was peace and that He suffered for us, in our place and
that He overcame the world, but He DID NOT bring a millenial kingdom of
heaven to the earth where there is no more suffering.  He clearly says
in this world you HAVE tribulation.  His answer isn't that it'll go away
(prior to His second coming) but that He overcame it and that in Him
there is peace.

One last passage that really hits hard on what you're suggesting is
Mathew 16:24-27 (also in Luke 9:23-26).  Christ commands His disciples
to take up their crosses.  Not their golf carts, not their Mercedes
Benzs but their crosses.  Implements of death.  That death is to ourself
and to the world, but that won't come without the committment, the
sacrifice and the complete desire for change that Christs asks of us.
"If any man wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his
cross and follow Me."

The question that might be left is why the suffering?  Just for one
source, look to what Christ said.  In talking about the disciples
relationship to the world, He makes the statment, "If you were of the
world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the
world, but I chose you out of the world therefor the world hates you."
(John 15:19)  He goes on to say how they will do all the things they did
to Him to the disciples and if you read the book of Acts, you see that
that is basically true.  I don't want to ever say that you can tell how
good of a Christian someone is by how many people there are out to get
him, but Western Christianity has been infused with this idea of a nice,
polite, inconspicuous, unobtrusive Jesus that is no where to be found in
the Bible.  Christ made lots of enemies and He played things very
straight.  There is righteousness and there is sin and the two can't get
along together.  If 'the world' doesn't seem to mind us as Christians,
than maybe there is something wrong.  Christ warns us all about salt
becoming tasteless and that is a message that all who believe need to
keep in mind.

				Rick Frey


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