Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site sdcc6.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix415 From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: The true God lives in the real Message-ID: <2210@sdcc6.UUCP> Date: Sun, 22-Sep-85 01:42:55 EDT Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2210 Posted: Sun Sep 22 01:42:55 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 26-Sep-85 07:29:14 EDT References: <667@utastro.UUCP> <-145727674@sysvis> Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 65 Summary: What the Bible says about the heart of man. In article <-145727674@sysvis>, george@sysvis writes: > > If the "Bible" teaches that man is basically evil, where is it? I have > seen no evidence of this. It is considered `harmful' for a man to be to > be `willful' (read self-glorification) or `wanton' (read `will-less'), but > this as an interpretation of all men being basically evil is a totally dif- > ferent story. The idea of `evil man' is only a `dogmatic whip' and was > created by those who wished to subjugate others for their own purposes. > Where to start. I guess the beginning is the best place. "And the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 "All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us have turned to our own way." Isaiah 53:6 Christ, speaking to the masses, "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children ..." Luke 11:13 And the passage that kind of nails what you were saying in a coffin is Romans 3:10-18, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving, the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." > Actually, if one were to try to explain the entire set of actions of men as > a whole, the ONLY consistent tautology is developed from the basis that man > is basically good. After all, was not (spiritual) man made in the "image > of God"? (Genesis) After being made in this image, he fails through his own > (acts of) `willfulness' not his (innate) `will'. There is a major and very > important difference here. For your own benefit, check it out carefully. You're right about man being made in God's image, but two verses help show where you've erred Biblically. "Behold I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices." I won't claim that this is a great passage convicting humanity as a whole of evil, but since many other passages do, this one shows God creating men upright and men choosing to go wrong. By the way, it's from Ecclesiastes 7:9. "And this is the judgement, that the light has come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the light for their deeds were evil." John 3:19 (Christ speaking) I'm somewhat unsure myself about exactly where the nature of evil lives. I'm a firm believer in free-will and so I lean toward the choice side, that men choose to do evil but I also see alot of scripture saying that choice is somewhat built into fallen flesh. Rather than leave you with a pat answer, let me end with a quote that shows what I was just talking about and might get the discusion going on a different track. "But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. ... Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:20-21,25 Rick Frey Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com