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From: pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Reply to Paul Zimmerman (from Dan Boscovich)
Message-ID: <362@pyuxn.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 30-Sep-85 20:16:01 EDT
Article-I.D.: pyuxn.362
Posted: Mon Sep 30 20:16:01 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 2-Oct-85 01:29:46 EDT
References: <8508172148.AA02946@sdcc6.ARPA> <308@pyuxn.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Piscataway, N.J.
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Xref: watmath net.religion:7832 net.religion.christian:1380

Dan,

	To keep it simple, you berate my position because my beliefs are
``nothing but assumptions.'' I find it disheartening when God whorshipers
complain that MY position is based on assumptions (What position isn't?),
while the statements they make are based on assumptions that are no better
(and ostensibly much worse) than mine. Dan, you speak about ``man's fallen
and evil nature.'' Certainly it is man's ``nature'' to do good. The way
man cares for his fellow man, for his children, for people in general.
There is something documentably wrong with people who engage in the evil
you describe. How then can you call this ``man's nature'' when we are talking
about exceptions to the rule?

	You say I add in my own interpretation of the events in the Bible
to reach my conclusion. And you don't? You see the evil that God performs and
you claim that it is all good because God did it. You work from the
assumption that God exists and must be good, and because of this assumption
your conclusions are false. You say ``if there are lies in the Bible than
nothing in it is reliable.'' This is not necessarily so. One way to make
a document seem more truthful is to interject a few facts mixed in with the
propaganda. This is why God tells stories about His destructive power, stories
that have been at least partially substantiated by archeological evidence
(the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flight of the Hebrews from Egypt). Your
error in judgment comes when you assume that God simply MUST be good because
you want Him to be. He feeds on this want of yours and uses you till you bleed.

	I might add, at this point, another frightening problem I have noticed
with responses to my articles. If I were to make a statement such as the one
I just made (``This is why God does this...''), it is torn down as just an
assertion, just what I say, nothing more. Yet the responses to such a sentence
are nothing more than claims and assertions themselves, which are easily
shown to be founded on assumptions such as those Dan makes. An example is
when Dan proclaims there is ``no evidence for the evil of God, just the evil
of man.''

	Dan, if you have experienced ``the evil within [you],'' why didn't
you fight it and recognize it for what it is:  the interference of the pig
filth Damager-God? Dan, you ARE a good person, and you can continue to be
if and only if you fight the evil influence of the pig God! You say my
``theory'' is flawed because I claim God can be beaten. But this is only
because of YOUR assumption that He is omnipotent! I have admitted that
God is powerful (the Bible attests to His destructive abilities), but He
has made numerous mistakes that He tries to patch and cover up throughout
history. He failed to get the whole world to ``convert'' to Christianity
throuugh coercion, crusade, and colonialism. He covers this up by simply
building up the other religions of the world to fight among themselves
and with Christianity, in order to perpetuate the world violence He wants.
You say ``it is Satan himself and the anti-christ who tries to beat God.''
But that is just what God wants you to believe. God and Satan are the
same being, Dan! Believe me, if we work together, if we shed the evil influence
of God, someday we WILL beat him! And you and I and everyone else will all
be the better for it.

	Why do you believe that suffering is inevitable? That is nothing
but a lie God told you. He told you in a way that would make you scared to
question it, scared to think about it, scared to do anything about it.
Any suffering that has come to Christians (and everyone else) has been
either directly at the hand of God, or at the hand of men led by God.
You say ``Don't blame God'' for the evil he induces men to do. WHY NOT?
You ask for ``solid evidence that He is responsible'' for it. Where is
YOUR solid evidence that He is responsible for the good you claim Him to
be responsible for? You are thwarted from reaching the obvious logical
conclusion by your assumptions that we are an ``evil damager human race.''
This is yet another lie told to you by God.

	Dan, you say ``Man is in rebellion against God. He seeks after his own
way. He does his own thing.'' Is it wrong to seek after our own way? Is it
wrong only because God doesn't like it? Why does that alone make it wrong?
You have been duped into believing and accepting the lies of an evil God.
If you held to the principles you claim to hold, those involving real love
for human beings, you too would be in rebellion against this monster. It is
sad that your need to believe in and whorship God supercedes your humanity.
The demands of an alien, inhuman, evil God are more important to you than
the needs of your fellow human beings.

	I asked you why you chose to stop questioning God at those vital
moments when you recognized Him for what He is. You responded by saying that
I have created my own belief about Christ. You're absolutely right: I
have learned not to accept God's account of such things the same way I
wouldn't believe the story of Watergate as told by Richard Nixon. Yes, Dan,
I say ``God is a liar, therefore what He says in the Bible must be lies,''
and I show which things are lies and why. And you respond by calling it all
``Nothing but assumptions!'' Yet you say ``God is the ultimate truth, therefore
what He says in the Bible must be the truth.'' Isn't THAT nothing but an
assumption?

	Then, Dan, the ultimate denigration of my beliefs: you ask if I have
ever considered the possibility that I am evil! That is beneath you, Dan.
Of course, you are right, I can and do blame the Damager-God for evil.
You blame yourself. Why? Because HE told you you are evil and you believed
Him! Why? I wonder if you have asked yourself the question about yourself,
thinking about whether you and your beliefs might be evil, or whether you
might have been duped by evil. It is sad that you rejected Him and then
backslid into whorshiping Him again. (I take that to mean that you still
acknowledged and accepted the fact of His existence but rejected His
influence.)

	I accept your apology, but I do wish you would really think through
the things I have said about God this time around instead of avoiding them.
My question to you is why you don't think seriously about the possibility
that this God has deceived you. I do present significant evidence about God
(evidence you have seen already yourself) that you choose to ignore in favor
of believing that He represents love and goodness. You must ask why you choose
to do this in the face of such evidence. You claim it is my vision that has
been corrupted. I think a careful consideration of what I have said might
show to you that it is your vision that has been corrupted, if you just drop
a few of your assumptions about God. You speak about Satan (as the serpent)
``tricking'' us into questioning God's actions, attitudes, and motives.
The fact that you consider the suggestion that you question such things to
be ``trickery'' tells me a lot about the types of assumptions you make, and
how God has successfully deceived you, how He has swayed you into believing
that any questioning of Him is wrong. Don't you recognize evil when you see it?

Be well,
-- 
Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories
pyuxn!pez


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