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From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God and suffering
Message-ID: <2213@sdcc6.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 25-Sep-85 03:58:15 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2213
Posted: Wed Sep 25 03:58:15 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 4-Oct-85 05:10:42 EDT
References: <389@decwrl.UUCP> <2203@sdcc6.UUCP> <351@pyuxn.UUCP>
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
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Xref: watmath net.religion:7862 net.religion.christian:1390
Summary: An example of what I'm saying

Paul,

We can keep this as a side argument and since you were short, I will be
too.

In article <351@pyuxn.UUCP>, pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) writes:
> 
> 	Why do you so vehemently deny the God's hateful enjoyment which He
> gets out of your suffering? You speak of the apostle Paul saying that
> God reproves those He loves. Isn't that enough for you? Must you devise
> a bizarre ``explanation'' to account for this, instead of accepting the
> fact that God is evil? 

I don't know if you overlooked a typical child/parent relationship or if
you disagree with the idea, but what about parents discipling children?
Are they evil pigs too?  Why do you have this idea that all discipline
is bad?  If my parents hadn't of spanked me when I got caught stealing
candy from the supermarket down the street I might have never stopped or
learned that it was wrong.  

And what about a football coach, is hell-week the work of a evil pig
coach?  Hell-week (the last week of summer where you have about six
hours a day of practice, in the sun, with full pads) hurts one whole
heck of a lot but my coach wasn't evil.  When he made me run laps for
missing practices, that wasn't evil either.  Discipline and punishment
are a part of learning.  We accept it in the home, in the school, why
should moral learning be any different?

> I can only conclude that he must enjoy the
> suffering we endure in His presence, since if He didn't, He could simply
> will it away. I contend that the fact that he doesn't will it away is
> proof of His evil intent. 

Monty Python said it simply and clearly in the ending of Time Bandits
when the child star of the movie asks why the God figure created evil
and His response (which is accurate in more abstract terms) was that it
has something to do with free-will.  God doesn't want the bad part of
free-will, the death, the suffering, the separation from God, but
without the ability to choose going away from God, there's no way to
choose going to Him.  You can't have one without the other.  So what
I'll be glad to grant you that you can accuse God of is for making us
choose and making us responsible for our choice.

But back to learning through discipline and reproof.  It's such a
fundamental part of life; animals learn through reinforcement and
punishment, people learn similarly, so why is it a no go when it comes
to God teaching us through trials (difficult times) and reproof
(possible, not guaranteed recriminations for our actions)?  It's simply
not fair to let every one else use it without having it be fair for God.

				Rick Frey

"All discipline seems for the moment not to be joyful, but sorrowful.
Yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yeilds the
peaceful fruit of righteousness."  Hebrews 12:11


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