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From: patdiv@ihlpa.UUCP (j. freeland)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Reply to Paul Zimmerman
Message-ID: <816@ihlpa.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 3-Oct-85 17:29:51 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihlpa.816
Posted: Thu Oct  3 17:29:51 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 4-Oct-85 06:16:42 EDT
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> 
> 
>    Paul,
> 
>    Please except my apologies for calling you Mr. Z. However, I did not
>    call you that in contempt. It was merely a short cut rather than
>    writing out your entire name. I will from here on address you as Paul.
> 
>    Thank you for sending me those articles in the mail. I did not see
>    them on the net and was wondering if you had responded or not.
> 
>    First, I will comment on some of the things that you said.
> 
> >          Anyone who has lived a full life has experienced hurt of
> >some kind or other. The question is ``Why?'' Is it because of the random
> >elements of chance that evolutionists attribute their theories to? Or is it
> >because of the deliberate interference of a Damager-God?
> 
>  Or is it a result of man's fallen and evil nature? Just as the Apostle
>  Paul, I also am aware of an evil that is present within me. It is this
>  evil that causes men to steal, kill, and rape. It is this evil that
>  causes war. It is this evil nature that causes men to stand by while
>  their brothers and sisters are starving and dying. Why does Jerry Lewis
>  have to do a telethon to raise a few million dollars for MD. There are
>  many multi-millionaires in the world that could give the money NOW and
>  write it off their taxes. You attribute this to the Damager-God but I
>  attribute it to the selfishness of man's heart.
> 
> >You say you ``know'' I could not possibly really believe my ``theory.''
> >I believe it because the evidence makes it clear that it is true.  Why do you
> >believe your ``theory?''  Since I was never ``trying to serve'' God, I am not
> >trying to hurt Him back. I am trying to erode the base of sheepish whorshipful
> >support for a pig monster who gains pleasure from our misery by letting people
> >know what He is really like. I don't believe that He is as all powerful as
> >you might believe (obviously He makes mistakes), and I believe someday He
> >will be beaten. And I live in hope for that day.
> 
>  The evidence may be consistence with your belief. It is also consistent
>  with mine. However, your theory has a basic underlying flaw. You base
>  your beliefs on various incidents described in the Bible. But then you
>  add your own interpratation of the events. You claim that the facts are
>  are mixed with lies of the Damager-God. You have therefore, set yourself
>  up as THE prophet who has the ability to distinguish between truth and
>  error in the Bible. How did you come to this revelation. If there are lies
>  in the Bible than nothing in it is reliable. Your theory crumbles for
>  lack of evidence that this Damager-God even exists. The only evidence
>  you have left is the evil and inhumanity of man throughout the centuries
>  of recorded history. But, this is no evidence for the existance of God,
>  just the evil of man.
> 
>  The evidence for my belief in a good God comes right out of the Bible
>  with no discerning of truth and error. Just what the scriptures say. If
>  you accept the Bible as evidence than it is not subject to whimsical
>  changes in the facts and God's charactor. The claims of the Bible have
>  been substantiated in my life. I have experienced the evil within me
>  that it describes, I have experienced the meaninglessness of life apart
>  from God, I have experienced the forgiveness of sins, and the joy and
>  love that comes from a God who has my best interests in mind.
> 
>  Another flaw in your theory is your belief that one day this God will be
>  beaten. You said that He is not as powerful as I might believe. Where
>  do you get that information from? The Bible? Who do you think could ever
>  beat a God who can do the things you yourself say He has done? He can
>  destroy cities and people at His mere command. He can destroy the world
>  in a flood. He is planning to destroy all mankind at Armegeddon. Yet, you
>  think He can be beaten. This is a frightening position, Paul. Because it
>  is Satan himself and his anti-christ who thinks he can and tries to beat
>  God. Revelations 19 says that the armies of the earth led by Satan will
>  turn to fight against Christ at His return.
> 
>  Paul, there is an Evil-Damager God. It is Satan. He is the god of this
>  world and you are believing his lies. His lies from the very beginning
>  in Genesis 3.
> 
> >        If I have ``hurt God,'' as you say, then I am extremely proud. I doubt
> >that this has occured, because I am just one human being, and billions of
> >people still offer the sheepish whorship He has sought by inducing the belief
> >into our minds about how good He is despite His evil doings. You are as much
> >a victim of this as the other billions, Dan. I feel truly sorry for you. If
> >you feel you are suffering, it is because you have fallen for His lines and
> >now sympathize with Him, despite what you know about His evil. If you feel
> >as honored as Paul did to suffer, then you have fallen for God's biggest
> >lie:  ``Suffering for me is good.'' Why do you believe this?
> 
>  Suffering is inevitable. It came upon us when Adam disobeyed God. Death
>  was introduced into the world at that time. Adam was warned. He didn't
>  listen. But God, rich in mercy, immediately spoke of the hope to come
>  in the one who would bruise the serpants head, the seed of the woman.
> 
>  Any suffering that has come to Christians has come at the hand of men.
>  Don't blame God for Nero and the other Ceaser's persecutions. Don't blame
>  God for the Inquisition and the persecution of the Reformers. Don't blame
>  God for the persecution behind the Iron Curtain, until you can give me
>  good solid evidence that He is responsible. Until then the evidence is
>  obvious. I have never seen the hand of God nail a man's limbs to a hunk
>  of wood, or release the switch on a guillitine. I have never seen God
>  toss men into a filthy, diseased prison cell to watch him rot. I have
>  never seen God light the match to burn a man at the stake. Jesus said,
>  "They hated me, they shall also hate you!" They have proven Him right
>  down through the ages.
> 
>  I don't seek to suffer and I have not really suffered very much. However,
>  if I should one day find myself in the position of my brothers and sisters
>  behind the Iron Curtain, than so be it. It won't be because of an Evil-
>  Damager God, but an evil-damager human race that kills it's own for sport
>  and gain! Suffering in and of itself is NOT good. But God has used even
>  the self-inflicted suffering of our evil race for His glory and our benifit.
> 
>  God said, "All things work together for good to those who love God." This
>  includes suffering. Let me explain how.
> 
>  Man is in rebellion against God. He seeks after his own way. He does his
>  own thing, excluding God. Genesis 4 thru 11 illustrates this. Romans ch.1
>  talks about it. Even as Christians, we are still inclined to rebellion.
>  Paul talks about this in Romans ch. 5-7. To be born-again is the beginning
>  of a new life. At this point God begins to teach us His ways and conform
>  us to the image of His perfect Son. But we rebel at times not wanting to
>  give up our old ways and sins. Only when we allow ourselves to be controlled
>  by God's spirit can we grow and experience His grace and love.
> 
>  Suffering causes us to seek God. When things are going our way we tend
>  to get self-sufficient and selfish. When we suffer, we remember who we
>  are and what is really important. It draws us to Christ.
> 
>  Through suffering He is there ready to embrace me and help me through it.
>  It is at this time that I come to experience the goodness of God and the
>  Life that He offers. Like Peter said, "Where could we go, Rabbi, You have
>  the words of eternal Life!"
> 
> >        As I have said to others, don't waste prayers to the pig filth
> >Damager-God, on me or on you. There is no love from Him waiting for
> >anybody. Did He really ``become human flesh,'' or did He just select a man
> >as His son and dupe him into suffering for Him, in His place, then duping
> >the rest of mankind into believing it all? Why do you persistently believe
> >in God's lies when you have already said that you know better, that you have
> >questioned the goodness of God?  Why the heck did you stop?
> 
>  Here again you have created your own belief about Christ. Where have you
>  recieved your information? "Select a man and dupe him into suffering..."
>  Wow! Your theory is based on assumptions just like this. You say that
>  God is a liar, therefore what He says in the Bible must be lies. Than you
>  go about telling us what are lies and what are not. Nothing but assumptions!
> 
>  Have you ever considered the possibility that you are evil, Paul? I mean
>  in the biblical sense that all mankind is evil. Have you ever examined
>  your heart objectively? Do you find yourself pure? Of course, you can
>  always blame the Evil-Damager God for your evil because He created you,
>  right?
> 
>  Why God created man, knowing he would fall, I can not answer. But I can
>  say that I am glad I am here. I am glad God did create me. I am glad He
>  gave me a choice to follow Him or reject Him. I chose to reject Him for
>  the first 20 years of my life. Than after a brief period of serving Him,
>  I rebelled again for a few years. I have great joy in the knowledge that
>  God not only created me knowing I would fall, but He paid the price for
>  my rebellion, and He saved me, knowing that I would rebel again and again.
> 
>  First John chapter one says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and
>  Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
> 
>  To confess means to agree with God concerning our sins. This is a
>  characteristic of a Christian. We are the ones who agree with God about
>  our sinfullness and rebellion. And He is faithful and Just to forgive
>  us. Than He gives us eternal Life with Him in His Glory!
> 
>  Paul, I apologize for calling you a monster. But tell me, if there was
>  someone you loved dearly and had experienced their love and goodness towards
>  you, and someone called that person a pig monster, evil, damaging being, etc.
>  do you think it might provoke you to think that person was not quite right.
>  What do you think you might say to that person?
> 
>  I did think through the things you said about God. I considered them
>  carefully.  I didn't just write them off. I can see how one would
>  blame God for evil things that happen to them and around them. But I
>  also believe that this is because we are short-sighted and have corrupt
>  vision. Try to see things from Gods point of view and from an eternal
>  aspect. God has His reasons for doing things. If we don't understand
>  them, that doesn't make them evil. Remember, if He created us, He must
>  be smarter than us. If He is infinite, than how can we being finite
>  understand Him completely. Don't let the Evil-Damaging Satan trick you
>  with his lies as he did Adam and Eve. Trick you into questioning God's
>  actions, attitudes, and motives! Don't be a sheepish follower of the
>  god of this world, Satan, and succumb to his treachery and deceit. You
>  know what evil he is capable of and has done. He will be beaten someday
>  by the True and Almighty One.
> 
>  Choose this day who you will serve: As for me and my house, we will
>  serve God!
> 
>  Regards,
> 
>  Dan Boskovich

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