Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84 chuqui version 1.9 3/12/85; site unisoft.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!qantel!dual!unisoft!tim From: tim@unisoft.UUCP (Tim Bessie) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Masculinity/Femininity, baths, and conforming Message-ID: <574@unisoft.UUCP> Date: Thu, 3-Oct-85 15:43:42 EDT Article-I.D.: unisoft.574 Posted: Thu Oct 3 15:43:42 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 6-Oct-85 05:08:17 EDT References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> Reply-To: tim@unisoft.UUCP (Tim Bessie) Distribution: net Organization: UniSoft Systems, Berkeley Lines: 79 Keywords: masculine, feminine, bath, conform Summary: In article <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel >feminine. I find it amazing, too. You have to acknowledge, though, that only 2 women have responded to the query so far. Hardly a good sample. Maybe the ones with very different views don't want to publicly state them, or think it unnecessary or silly...? > This makes me frustrated. I would love to do just these kinds >of things too, and to feel as good about it as you women do. (Yes, >including wearing skirts.) But when I do anything like this, I feel >more or less of a sense of discomfort -- in part because of my >upbringing, but in part because even the women of today think of >these things as very feminine, and don't understand when I do them. > I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine >things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the >role". About the only time I feel really masculine in a positive way >is when I look at myself in the mirror after a shower; Really? So do I! Or a bath (I like baths better. Baths appeal to both masculine AND feminine sides (if there are such things) in me). Yet, I wouldn't say 'masculine' to mean anybody else's notion of what that word means. As far as I'm concerned, when I look at myself in the mirror, being please with my MALE form -- as a woman would and should be please with her FEMALE form -- is the feeling of masculinity or femininity. It doesn't have to fit any classic shape. It just says, "I am a man, and this is what I look like, and I like it." It doesn't preclude me from wanting to then go put on a light cotten robe, light a candel, dab some sweet-smelling oil upon my various parts (-:), etc. and recline on a soft bed, under the stars, with soft music... all just by myself, for myself. That feeling of LUXURIOUSNESS, maybe, of *quiet power* within onesself... that is common to feeling comfortable with whatever sex you are. That's what I think of when I think of masculinity/femininity. It also has to do with a kind of oneness with nature and your immediate world. >and the only >time I feel really heterosexual (not the same thing) in a positive >way is when my body responds to a sexy woman. > Am I alone, or do other men feel like this too? I tell myself >that this is all I really need, but society has a big influence when >it says there's more to masculinity than this. If I stuck to what society said masculinity was, I'd be very unhappy. I've allowed myself to conform a little, though. I used to wear very loose cloths... drawstring pants, peasant shirts, etc. all in very striking/pastel colors/designs... things usually considered feminine... I'd always thought it was unfair that women are allowed, in our society, to dress so nicely, with such a wide range of color and pattern, while men are pretty limited. Even if you go with reletively recent historic costume, men's clothes haven't changed to much. I also had quite long and curly hair. The women at work all said how lovely it was, but it seemed like people I met didn't take me too seriously. So I got a haircut (several, actually... wasn't satisfied the first few times), bought some regular ol' jeans, long-sleeve shirts (all cotton, when I could find 'em), belt, etc. Not very comfortable at first, but I'm getting used to it. AND, people respond to me more positively, and women I know say how much more handsome I look (they can see my face now), etc. What makes me feel masculine, though, hasn't changed at all. I still feel inside the same way. The packaging has changed a little, is all, and I'm pretty happy with it. - Tim --- "Time is for dragonflies and angels. The former live too little and the latter live too long." --------------------------------------------------------------- ---> Tim Bessie ----- {ucbvax,dual}!unisoft!tim ---> Unisoft Systems; 739 Allston Way; Berkeley, CA 94710 ---> (415) 644-1230 TWX II 910 366-2145 Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com