Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/12/84; site aero.ARPA Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!aero!kremen From: kremen@aero.ARPA (Gary Kremen ) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Sevener's comments Message-ID: <500@aero.ARPA> Date: Fri, 11-Oct-85 17:04:55 EDT Article-I.D.: aero.500 Posted: Fri Oct 11 17:04:55 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 15-Oct-85 06:11:27 EDT References: Upon request Reply-To: kremen@aero.UUCP (Gary Kremen (5731)) Organization: The Aerospace Corp., El Segundo, CA Lines: 97 Keywords: Paaranoia, Vietnam, Rock N Roll, Pluto Another reply to Tim Sevener: >Is quite ironic given the rash of movies, "Missing in Action", "Rambo", >"Red Dawn", "Invasion USA" and other movies promoting the same sort of >"America First" violence and paranoia promoted by Don Black and his >colleagues. The way the films go about proving their point is stupid and unrealistic. That doesn't mean there is not a very valid message contained in the films. I am not sure what "paranoia" you talking about, but the underlying point behind some of these movies is not fantasy-based at all. Just pick up the newspapers and read (or is all you read electronic mail, Tim?). This Don Black is a part of a small minority of a much larger group that expresses support for the ideas (find out more information on America's MIA, etc.) in these films. Of course Black, most probably likes the films for there violence. >To my knowledge none of these films has been picketed although I have felt >the urge to do so. What other urges do you feel, Tim? >Moreover such movies as "Missing in Action" and "Rambo" promote several >right-wing myths about Vietnam: > 1)we could have "won" in Vietnam if only enough force had been applied. > Incredibly enough Richard Nixon, who continued the War to the bitter end, > has recently written a book blaming Congress and the lack of force > for "losing" the Vietnam War when that same Congress provided funds > for Nixon to drop more bombs on tiny Vietnam than were dropped in all > of World War II. This is hardly a "right-wing myth". Congress, backed by many Americans, was the main reason why we did not win. Enought force and we can move any object, including Ho Chi Min. Kennedy and Johnson, not Nixon authorized much of the saturation bombings. Also remember Vietnam was a different type of war than World War II or the Korean War. This was a war were the enemy, if you have not forgotten, was hiding among a civilian population. Different types of bombing methods had to be used. The statistic describing the amount of bombs dropped on tiny Vietnam is deceptive and misleading, to say the least. >This of course assumes that: > 2)we *should* have won in Vietnam, notwithstanding the fact that the War > began as a struggle by the Vietnamese themselves to gain their independence > from French colonialism. Rather than saying we "lost" Vietnam it might > be more accurate to say that the Vietnamese people won Vietnam in the > same way that we won our independence from British colonialism 200 years > ago. This is total bullshit. So the Vietnamese people gained in the war? Which Vietnamese people gained? The boat people? Those that were killed, raped, and brutalized in "re-education camps"? The other peoples of Southeast Asia? Like the Cambodians? Like the Laosians? Maybe it was only a small, communist minority in Hanoi that won. The only historical parallel between the our independence struggle and the communists in Vietnam's is the word independence. > 3)that there were significant numbers of Americans still "missing in action" > held in Vietnamese prisons for spite rather than simply missing. > There were far more Americans listed as missing in action after both > the Korean War and World War II, yet nobody claimed this as an excuse > for vengeance or as anything more than one of the unfortunate consequences > of War. Pilots whose planes are downed over the jungle, and others > will always be "missing in action" when their dead bodies are rotting > away deep in the jungle. Today we have better technologies for identifying battlefield dead. In World War II and the Korean War, a rotting body could have been anyone. Today by use of such modern methods in forensics we can identify almost all of our dead solders. Besides, its such a "small" country as Tim said. > Given the difficulty the right-wing had in justifying the Vietnam War > they have manufactured the bogus issue of "missing in action" to > justify their spirit of revenge towards Vietnam for being the first > country to defeat American militarism. The right-wing manufacturing this issue? What, are you ignoring history? Even during the Vietnam War, there were grass-roots groups supporting the rights of the POW's and MIA's. These groups were not part of any "right-wing conspiracy". They were ordinary people who were concerned with the issue as many are now. Don't you remember the POW bracelet some of us wore in sixties? I am still not sure of what "American First" Paranoia Tim speaks. A majority of Americans do believe in the right's of those Missing In Action (MIA's) and respectfully in the underlying points in many of these movies. In the large group of MIA supporters, there will aways be some like this Dan Blockhead guy. But there is NO need to smear this larger group because of universal dislike for a very small minority of extremists. .signature -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Name: Gary Kremen Address: kremen@aerospace.ARPA Quote: "Everyone wants justice done...on someone else" - Bruce Cockburn Theory: "Computers suck, but they pay the bills" Contrapositive: "I love LA and so should you" Disclaimer 1: "The company does not know what I am doing" Disclaimer 2: "Both the company and I have great lawyers"