Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83 (MC840302); site crin.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!mcvax!vmucnam!crin!tombre From: tombre@crin.UUCP (Karl Tombre) Newsgroups: net.nlang Subject: Re: Horrible Hack to tell Scand. Languages apart Message-ID: <126@crin.UUCP> Date: Mon, 14-Oct-85 11:02:07 EDT Article-I.D.: crin.126 Posted: Mon Oct 14 11:02:07 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 17-Oct-85 20:07:26 EDT References: <518@tjalk.UUCP> Organization: C.R.I.N Lines: 132 In article <518@tjalk.UUCP> dick@tjalk.UUCP (Dick Grune) writes: >Some days ago (Date: Thu, 3-Oct-85 06:42:59 -0100) Rob Bernardo >asked for the identification of the following Scandinavian languages. > >>Fodseng [some Germanic language] > >>Fodsa"ng [some Germanic language] > >>Fotseng [some Germanic language] > >Here is a Horrible Hack to tell them apart if you don't speak them. >I feel tempted to send this article anonymously, since its brute >phenomenological approach will surely (and justly) offend the native >speakers of these beautiful languages. But sheer vanity and the >hope to interest perhaps some people in Scandinavian languages has >prompted me to send this article just the same. So, asbestos suit >on, here goes. OK, here come some flames.... (but mild ones I hope, and constructive in one sense). And your idea of interesting people in Scandinavian languages is very good indeed. >Between Danish and Norwegian: the languages are highly related. >Hack 2: If words often contain VOICED consonants (b, d, g, v), > especially between two vowels or at the end of words, it's > Danish. This makes Fodseng Danish and Fotseng Norwegian. > (likewise bog/bok,book; tage/ta, take; inn/ind, in; and > many others) The word av (of) is a dead give-away: it is > Danish, the Norwegian form being af. NO NO NO NO. Norwegian: av, Danish af!!! And inn is norw., ind danish. >Actually there are two Norwegian languages, Riksmaol (with the o >over the a) (= State language) and Landsmaol (= Country language). >It is the riksmaol which you see in print and which is highly >related to Danish. The Landsmaol is spoken in rural Norway and is >more related to Swedish (time for the double asbestos suit). You >find it on road signs and in the local newspaper. Well, landsmaol is also written, and several great authors wrote in it. Historically, there is an explanation for those two languages (I think I already mentioned this once in this group, some months ago...): Norway was for a long time part of Denmark, and therefore the official written language was danish. This didn't matter so much because the three countries Norway, Denmark, Sweden have almost the same language, and there are so many different ways of speaking it inside each country. In fact, I think there is more difference between the language spoken in the Oslo region, the one spoken in Gudbrandsdal and the one you hear on the west coast, let us say in Haalandsdal (I mention this last region because nobody on the net is likely to have heard of it, but my family name comes from there) than between written danish, swedish and norwegian. Well, Norway was dominated by Denmark... (but many renowned danes were in fact norwegians: Ludvig Holberg, general Ry, ... on with the asbestos suits myself :-). When Norway became independent, the written language was made more norwegian, but mostly according to the way it was spoken in the Oslo region. People comming from other parts wanted a written language better suited to their needs; hence the landsmaol, which corresponds more to the way they speak on parts of the west coast. Nowadays, both languages are official. People in NET-land who collect stamps can surely tell that on some norwegian stamps, the name of the country is "NORGE" (riksmaol) and on others "NOREG" (no type error, as somebody suggested once to me, but landsmaol). Instead of "riksmaol" and "landsmaol", I think people often say something like "bokmaol" (language of the books) for the danish like and "nynorsk" (new norwegian) for the west-coast like. >Now for the other Scandinavian languages: > ........... >Icelandic is the most inflected of the Germanic languages ... I'm not sure Icelandic can be considered as a germanic language (maybe, just my modest opinion). In fact, in the good old days when the normans were rampaging whole Europe and were discovering America (several centuries before C. C.), they spoke a common language known as 'norro"n'. Later, they bacame more civilised and had many contacts with The British Isles and also Germany ( Bergen was as member city of the Hansa ). But Iceland remained very much alone in the far north, and there specific norro"n culture and language were kept better. So Icelandic is a nearer parent of the old viking language than the other scandinavian languages. Now, maybe the specialists consider the norro"n family to be part of the germanic family... >Then there is Faer-Oerese, spoken on the Faer-Oer islands, of which >I know next to nothing; judging from names on the map, it is a >simpler form of Icelandic. Do you only know Scandinavia through the map? :-) :-) I hope not. It is a beautiful region for holidays. Go there, it is really worth the money! >And now for another non-Scandinavian language: >Hack 5: If it has many repeated or double vowels (aa, ee, uo, ii, a"a") > and you can't make head or tail of it, it's Finnish > (jalkavuode) Well, you're right that Finnish is not a member of the scandinavian languages family, but Finland is part of Scandinavia! I have heard that Finnish is closely related to hungarian. You also mention Turkish. Is it also in this family? I've never heard about it, but would be glad to know more. I hope this info was more or less accurate. I myself am born in Norway, have norwegian parents, but have lived in France since I was 2 years old. Therefore, my next question will be: "Why not do like me, switching from those barbarian languages to one real, beautiful, good latin language like French?" (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; (-: (-; > Dick Grune > Vrije Universiteit > de Boelelaan 1081 > 1081 HV Amsterdam > the Netherlands > Well, happy to have met a dutch citizen knowing so much about Scandinavia. (Yes yes, no joke!) Sincerely, -- --- Karl Tombre @ CRIN (Centre de Recherche en Informatique de Nancy) UUCP: ...!vmucnam!crin!tombre or ...!inria!crin!tombre COSAC: crin/tombre POST: Karl Tombre, CRIN, B.P. 239, 54506 VANDOEUVRE CEDEX, France "Car le plus lourd fardeau, c'est d'exister sans vivre." (Victor Hugo)