Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site uwmacc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!qantel!dual!lll-crg!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) Newsgroups: net.origins Subject: Re: Christianity vs Evolution Message-ID: <1532@uwmacc.UUCP> Date: Sat, 5-Oct-85 16:38:19 EDT Article-I.D.: uwmacc.1532 Posted: Sat Oct 5 16:38:19 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 7-Oct-85 05:22:08 EDT References: <408@cmu-cs-edu1.ARPA> Organization: UW-Madison Primate Center Lines: 79 > [Ernest Hua] >> { From: feikema@mmm.UUCP (John Feikema) } >>> Religions conflict with science in, among other things, that they freely >>> recognize the magical and the supernatural as real entities some times >>> using them as foundations. >> ... Religion (at least Christianity) doesn't freely recognize the majical >> and supernatural as real entities, at least not in the sense that I think >> you mean. > Agreed. I really meant to say that by allowing for supernatural entities, > religions conflict with science. When "science" is equated with "naturalism". However, the word "science" means "the search for knowledge". It does not specify that the search must be naturalistic. Such seems to be the meaning in modern times, true. But that meaning is not a logical necessity. >> Christianity is based on the fact that an omnipotent being, GOD, created >> the world. This creation was not "outside" of physical laws. > That's quite an assumption ... that a "GOD" created the world ... more > specifically, that "He" created it with laws that "He" designed ... that > these laws still exist ...? What evidence do you have to support this? It was observed for you long ago that one does not prove assumptions. One assumes them, and proceeds from there. >> Miracles, and even original human thought is merely evidence that the >> laws of physics that GOD wrote, are orders of magnitute above our present >> understanding and perhaps even our ability to understand (although I >> certainly advocate trying) the real fabric of the universe. > If these laws are "orders magnitude above our present understanding", how > do you expect anyone to be able to figure out that they exist? What kind > of evidence could possibly support the existence of laws beyond our under- > standing? Read what he wrote. The key word is "present". Our present understanding of several phenomena is now orders of magnitude above what it used to be. For instance, the processes involved in putting a man on the moon are now understood much better than, say, two thousand years ago. The irony of your comment is that in it you deny (without meaning to, probably) the cumulative nature of scientific endeavor, in asserting that our understanding will not reach certain levels. Note also your error of interpretation. John did not say that the laws *are* above our understanding (as you seem to assume), but that they *may* be. > You have already assumed that God exists, of course, which is not support- > able by science by any means (certainly not the Christian God which you > mostly likely speak of). Remember ... if God created physical laws, he > must be able to circumvent them or make up new ones. If this is really > the case, then science has no value whatsoever as it cannot discover any > real useful information that will most likely apply beyond the next moment. Assuming that such a God *must* be arbitrary and capricious from moment to moment. It was observed for you long ago that this assumption (which is inherent in your comment) is made by few who believe in the existence of this God. Note also your ignorance of the historical development of scientific investigation: Modern scientific enterprise (in western circles, at least) has its most fundamental roots in the foundation laid by those who believed that God was reasonable and consistent, and that His creation was ordered according to those attributes, and therefore could be investigated under the assumption that laws and processes found to hold today would also hold tomorrow. -- | Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois --+-- | "The voice of the Lord is full of majesty." | Psalm 29:4