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From: ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: The true God lives in the real
Message-ID: <110@sdcc7.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 5-Oct-85 03:12:55 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcc7.110
Posted: Sat Oct  5 03:12:55 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 12-Oct-85 17:30:10 EDT
References: <667@utastro.UUCP> <-145727674@sysvis> <2210@sdcc6.UUCP> <769@psivax.UUCP>
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
Lines: 119
Summary: The Bible and the location of evil.

In article <769@psivax.UUCP>, friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:

> >Where to start.  I guess the beginning is the best place.  "And the Lord
> >saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every
> >intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."  Gen 6:5
> >
> 	But this still doesn't say that humanity is *by* *nature*
> wicked, only that at that particular time essentially all men were
> *acting* wickedly.
> 
But how much deeper can one go than every thought and intent of your heart?
> 
> >You're right about man being made in God's image, but two verses help
> >show where you've erred Biblically.
> >
> >"Behold I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have
> >sought out many devices."  I won't claim that this is a great passage
> >convicting humanity as a whole of evil, but since many other passages
> >do, this one shows God creating men upright and men choosing to go
> >wrong.  By the way, it's from Ecclesiastes 7:9.
> >
> 	Which is exactly what was being said, that man's inner being,
> as created by God, is good but we have, by deliberate willfullness,
> departed from that goodness. Quite different from saying that mankind
> is intrinsically evil!
> 
Ok, true in the logic of what you just said, but the last passage of my article
(the quote from Romans 7) talks about the war of the two different natures that
are present within us.  Two different natures, continually warring and fighting
for control.  One is from God, but the other is intrinsically evil.

Just an aside really quickly here.  I've always kind of played around with the
definition of intrinsic.  To me, if someone does something all the time, while
in the truest sense, it doesn't have to be intrinsic, int eh practical sense,
there's usually little difference (as long as their really is a choice).

> >I'm somewhat unsure myself about exactly where the nature of evil lives.
> >I'm a firm believer in free-will and so I lean toward the choice  
> >side, that men choose to do evil but I also see alot of scripture
> >saying that choice is somewhat built into fallen flesh.
> 
Now for one question.  Why did you only respond to the easier quotes?  You
left out a few quotes that I'll repost and I'm interested in hearing how you
explain these.  I find myself agreeing with you in idea, but not in evidence
and support from the Bible.  Anyway ...

Christ, speaking to the masses, "If you then being evil know how to give
good gifts to your children ..."  Luke 11:13

How much more blatant can you get than this (I shouldn't ask that because
it gets plainer).  Christ is saying that we as people are simply evil in our
nature.

Romans 3:10-18, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none
who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside,
together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is
not even one.  Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they
keep deceiving, the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is
full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood,
destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have
they not known.  There is no fear of God before their eyes."  

What would you say about someone who you could accurately describe with this   
passage?  They're confused?  They're not really that bad?  Why do action words
not reflect the place where the actions came from?  Christ says that bad fruit
doesn't come from good trees and that a tree can only produce after its kind.
If the deeds are evil, then what must the nature be? That's the whole reasoning
behind Christ's call for us to be 'born again' and to 'die to ourselves'.  Paul
talks about in Galatians, "For I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no 
longer I who live but Christ who lives in me."  Gal 2:20  When Paul says its
no longer he who lives, he's not saying that he committed suicide or that he's
a robot, but that the sinful nature (from Romans 7) has been put to death, and
that the good part of him (what God created us to be) has been brought to life
in Christ.

Unfortunately this is a paraphrase, and it also goes back on the deeds/nature
question, but it's a favorite passage of mine where Christ describes the nature
of men. "And this is the judgement, that the light has come into the world, but
men loved the darkness for their deeds were evil.  It goes on about how Christ
is the light and men are afraid to come to the light for again, their deeds are
evil.  But knowing Christ's teachings on outward nature being a manafestation
of inward nature and the heart of man in general, it seems willfully errant
to say that Christ isn't hitting on what's inside people.

Just in writing this (forgive me if it sounds a little harsh) I think a problem
I have in discussing this issue is that I'm not concerned with the nature of
man.  I'm convinced that free-will exists and that men choose to do evil.  
What that's a formula for or what you want to call that (original sin, sin 
nature, etc.) doesn't make any difference to me.  So we might in fact be       
agreeing and just arguing over terminology, I'm not too sure.  One last thing.

> 	Well, I would say that it is as much the corrupt nature of a
> fallen *world* as the nature of humanity. That is we learn evil
> because it is all around us and we have very little in the way of the
> truly good as an example of how we should behave.
> 
You talk about man being a product or at least somewhat reflecting a fallen
world, and my answer to that is get the order straight.  Man fell, taking
the world down with him.  And I think that that's the way it is today.  
Although I do get angry about boneheaded science professors who use their
position and authority (and not accurate information) to impose their beliefs
on students, and I do get angry about situations like South Africa, and 
Central America, but in many ways (I'm not trying to bail on these questions,
they're simply the topic of another issue) these too are the product of 
people.  And by the way, I get bummed about preachers and Christian profs
who try to do the same things; i.e arguing against science and evolution from 
a church publication when they know nothing and care less about what they're 
discussing.  The lack of intellectual integrity hits both sides.

Does that sound fatuous or what.  I'm sitting back in my nice office 
on campus, getting paid to work for these professors I'm maligning.  Gese.

As you can see when I get into a discussion that I'm excited about I have 
a tendency to start rambling and just get into saying what pops up
rather than trying to hammer your points into the ground and win the 
argument (win??).  Accordingly, forgive the almost diary-style with which I
ended this posting.

				Rick Frey