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From: ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: The true God lives in the real
Message-ID: <126@sdcc7.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 14-Oct-85 01:38:55 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcc7.126
Posted: Mon Oct 14 01:38:55 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 15-Oct-85 06:08:40 EDT
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Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
Lines: 72
Summary: The true meaning of Time Bandits

> Some God you envision.  Terry Gilliam (not Monty Python), who made "Time
> Bandits", quite obviously intended the introduction of Ralph Richardson as
> God as a very cute bit of satire.  Sad that those who are so entrenched in
> their beliefs didn't get the joke.

Are you sure that couldn't work both ways?

> If memory serves, Paul has been very consistent (contrary to what Craig
> claims) in saying that god did not create the universe.  

Is that something to be proud of?  Consistently saying something?

> In any case,
> if this is so (and Paul gives a very convincing argument that if a god
> exists it could not have been the "ultimate" creator)

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are using 'could' in a 
conditional sense, Paul has in no way provided any evidence whatsoever 
proving God to have done anything.  His entire argument that God isn't
the ultimate creator is that we can ask since nothing can come out of
nothing, God must have been created.  And that's a convincing argument?
Paul's other point is that since he can see how the sciences have 'proved'
that we evolved, obviously God didn't create us.  You seem pretty easy
to please if you consider Paul's argument's convincing.

>> But how much deeper can one go than every thought and intent of your heart?

> Maybe every thought and intent of YOUR heart, bucko!  PLEASE don't be
> so damned presumptuous as to claim that because YOU feel your innards to
> be naturally evil that everyone else IS the way you feel you are.  

Winner of the out of context quote of the month.  The line you quoted is 
from the Bible and the actual words are my paraphrase in response to 
a discussion about the evil in people's hearts and what the Bible had to say
about it.

> is this the reason for the Christian movement towards moral imposition:  that
> we are dealing with people who essentially feel themselves to be hideously
> evil and thus assume that everyone else is, too, thus "requiring" that
> society have stringent restrictions to protect us from those who don't
> "recognize" that they are evil the way these good people (?) do?  What
> a revolting self-debasing philosophy!
> 
First I could ask you (you seem to dislike unfounded assumptions) what you
claim to be the nature of people.  Look at the world around us and the people
and tell me how wonderful and kind people are.  Secondly, while I believe
what the Bible says, I didn't say it.  God did.  If you want to complain to
someone about criticizing people, talk to God.

>> I'm convinced that free-will exists and that men choose to do evil.  

> Nothing like working from unfounded assumptions...

I missed Rich Rosen vs. the world on the free-will debate and rather than
start it again, I'll simply say that you, not knowing anything about my 
environement and about what goes on in my mind you aren't in a very good 
position to categoricaly deny the free-will of anyone other than yourself.
Who's making the unfounded assumption?

> But seemingly less angry about your own beliefs that we "are" evil (because
> you say so) being foisted upon the rest of us.  Doesn't that strike you as
> equally "boneheaded"?

Being foisted?  I simply quoted the Bible and repeated words that Christ said
to people way back then.  I have no right, no authority and no knowledge with
which to judge you or condemn you.  God, however, claims to.  The Bible says
that each of us have the law of God written in our hearts and that we are
responsible to God for our actions.  

Are you a bonehead for foisting your belief in the lack of free-will on me?

				Rick Frey