Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/12/84; site aero.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!aero!homeier From: homeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith Message-ID: <507@aero.ARPA> Date: Wed, 16-Oct-85 19:01:43 EDT Article-I.D.: aero.507 Posted: Wed Oct 16 19:01:43 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 19-Oct-85 07:58:51 EDT References: <497@aero.ARPA> <1562@hammer.UUCP> Reply-To: homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) Distribution: net Organization: The Aerospace Corp., El Segundo, CA Lines: 115 Keywords: faith,salvation,endurance In article <1562@hammer.UUCP> coryb@hammer.UUCP (Cory Barker) writes: > >Peter, I really enjoyed your article and found much good >information therein, but there is one thing that I do not >understand. > >If there are no works that we must do to be saved then >how is it determined who is saved and who is not saved? >As you say, we must believe in Christ to be saved. >I however would have to classify believing in Christ as a work. >Perhaps you could clarify what you understand to be a work. >Faith is a gift from God but to receive that gift we must >do something like ask for it or read the scriptures. > >Please understand that I do not wish to disagree with you >just to be disagreeable but what you are saying just does >not make sense to me. Also be assured that I believe that >Jesus Christ atoned for my sins and if he had not done so >then all the works in the world could not save me. > >Cory Barker Cory, I am glad to have this opportunity to clarify what I was talking about. Thanks for bringing it up, since it really is quite important. The scripture I based that point on was in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." The point here is that it is God's grace, working in His sovereign love, that gives us the faith to believe. Our action in this is simply to accept that grace and that faith, that is, to believe. That is why people speak of making a decision for Christ. When someone *decides* to accept Jesus, the Lord is at that time giving faith to that person so that they can believe. I am not sure I completely understand all of what occurs here, but I think it may be related to the "leap of faith" that goes beyond what one knows to be provably true to believe in Jesus. So the only thing that we really have that we can say we gave to the Lord that was wholly ours is our wills. And those we need to lay down to Him every day, in countless ways. But the faith that we have in Him did not come from our inner strength or determination, as someone trying to grit his teeth and by sheer energy shouting "I *will* believe! I *will* believe!" That is obviously ridiculous. When you believe something, there is no straining or striving. You just believe it. If faith were something that you could indeed aquire by inner strength then there would be some people who would not be able, by reason of weakness of character, to believe. Also, those who were able by their strength, to have the faith to believe, would be able to chuckle to themselves, "Well, I really have done pretty well here, haven't I? Here I have gone and made this truly splendid display of show-stopping faith. My, I am impressive, aren't I? What a pity that poor slob over there can't believe. Perhaps if I showed off a bit more, he might take my course in 'Faith-building: How You Too Can Inherit the Kingdom, by rigorous discipline and exercise.'." They could say that they had done something that made them worthy of being saved, whereas actually we have done nothing worthy of salvation, but must lean wholly on Jesus as our redemption. The point is that we are completely lost without Him. There is nothing that we can do, no matter how fine and noble it may appear that can in any way pay off the enourmous debt of our sin. Only by trusting in Jesus and His dying for us can we be relieved of that incredible burden. Now 'works' is a word that is commonly used to denote those things that are done, for example, building a house, getting a Master's degree, writing a program, preaching, reading the Bible, saving someone from drowning, etc. The Bible encourages us to praise God for His great works, including the Creation of the world, and us in it (!), His sending Jesus to die for us, His raising Jesus from the dead, healing people, saving souls, etc. Many of these things are good. Under the Mosaic Law, the Jews thought that they could get to heaven by works, i.e., by obeying the Ten Commandments. But Jesus told us that we could by no means enter Heaven unless we were perfect in our observance of the Law. Since no one can possibly be perfect, this means that only by having Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to us by faith in Him can we be saved from judgement. For God has decreed that for whoever would accept Jesus as Lord, He will consider Jesus's sacrifice as complete payment of that person's sins. Then since all of our sins are paid for, we appear as sinless, perfect saints in the eyes of God. This is what I meant by this faith is not a work. We can't make faith, we must receive it. We ask Jesus to come in, and we are given the faith to believe in Him. We can't congratulate ourselves that we did anything that encouraged God to save us, He just saved us by working in our hearts knowledge of our need of Him, and bringing us to the point where we decided to accept Him. All we did was decide. I suppose you could call that decision a work. Fine, but the faith was still a gift, as the verse quoted above said. Now, we can indeed ask for faith, and that prayer is a work, but then the faith that we receive is still a gift, not in any sense "earned" by our prayer, only *released* to us by the prayer, as unlocking the front door lets the morning sunshine and warm air in. I can see that I am beginning to run on, so I think I will stop here. Please tell me how this strikes you, Cory, or if what I am trying to express is still not being said clearly. Or if I didn't really answer what you were asking about, then tell me. I don't feel that I have the ultimate answers here, anyways. If what I say has value to you, if it helps you in some way, then I'm happy. I certainly don't think that everything that I write is perfect. Sincerely, your brother, Peter -- Peter Homeier ______ Arpanet: homeier@aerospace / o \_/ UUCP: ..!ihnp4!trwrb!aero!homeier \___)__/ \ The Aerospace Corporation, M1-108 El Segundo, CA 90245