Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site pyramid.UUCP Path: utzoo!decvax!decwrl!pyramid!csg From: csg@pyramid.UUCP (Carl S. Gutekunst) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: One Christian's view on D&D games (LONG!) Message-ID: <52@pyramid.UUCP> Date: Sun, 20-Oct-85 17:25:09 EDT Article-I.D.: pyramid.52 Posted: Sun Oct 20 17:25:09 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 21-Oct-85 22:21:25 EDT References: <1515@vax3.fluke.UUCP> <982@vax2.fluke.UUCP> <1516@vax3.fluke.UUCP> Reply-To: csg@pyramid.UUCP (Carl S. Gutekunst) Distribution: na Organization: Pyramid Technology, Mountain View, CA Lines: 121 entropy@fluke.UUCP (Terrence J. Mason) writes: >Ordinarily I wouldn't touch a posting like this with a ten foot pole, but I >am>so totally appalled that I feel compelled to respond. Probably the wisest statement on the net in years. But, having been a *Dungeon Master* (I prefer "Referee," since I rarely use dungeons) for six years, I too feel compelled to respond. Not so much that I disagree with Mike, since I agree with his conclusion -- caution is advised, especially with children. But I do wish people who criticize D&D would get their facts straight. One of the most misunderstood aspects of D&D is that it is a simulation. The player's "game piece" is a "character" who lives in the D&D world, the way the little shoe or whatever is you gamepiece when you play Monopoly. All of the character's actions are stated verbally or implied from context, but NOTHING IS EVER ACTED OUT BY THE PLAYER. Players do not wield swords or cast spells, *characters* do. I have periodically had problems with players who took the game too seriously. The most common effects of this were (1) a player taking it personally when another player's character does something bad to his, and (2) a player using his character against another player's character to take out a grudge from something that happened outside the game. Hardly a major problem. Occasionally you do have people who "live" in the game and cannot seperate the fantasy from reality. These people have a problem that has nothing to do with D&D, although D&D tends to attract them like a magnet. However, responsible referees usually will not play with them, and other players usually will have nothing to do with them either since they tend to be obnoxious and unruly. Another point to consider is that D&D is an *adult* game. It was never intended for children. Only the corporate greed of its creator, Tactical Studies Rules, Inc., has driven them to rewrite the D&D rules and market them to "Ages 10 and up." I will not play with children. Finally, keep in mind that the game is highly extensible. The *rules* include very little or nothing about the style of play, the characters morals or religious beliefes, local terminology, special symbols, etc. These are created by the referee. Hence, the "goodness" or "badness" of a particular D&D group depends almost untirely upon the ref. Regarding some of Mike's specific points: In article <1515@vax3.fluke.UUCP> ptl@fluke.UUCP (Mike Andrews) writes: >Seems the more detailed versions of the D&D games tell you that you have a >patron god that you play the game with, whether you believe it or not. True, many campaigns include a whole panthenon of gods and godesses, usually pulled from Greek and/or Norse mythology. These are not part of the standard rules; they must be added by the referee. And again it's the *character* who believs, not the player. Some referees chose to use Yahweh and Satan instead, and viola, now you have a Christian game. >You are also required to verbally call out spells. The *character* is assumed to call out spells. The player never does. >He also said they greet each other in the halls giving the goats head sign >as a signal that they play the game. A parent should approach the referee, tell him this is irresponsible, and ask him to tell the kids what the symbol means and that they should stop it. >Remember many years ago when a young boy who was gifted enough to let him into >college early, somewhere back in the mid-West I believe, was found in Texas >(?) after having been missing for some time. He got there living out a D&D >game. He later committed suicide. His name was Egbert, he entered Michigan State University in the fall of 1978 at age 16, majoring in Computer Science. Two years later he got bored with school, and walked out to live with some friends in Louisana. Some friends in Michigan finally tracked him down and talked him into coming back. There was a police manhunt going on for him at the time, however, so he went to Texas first before calling his parents, so as to keep his friends from becoming involved. Six months later, while at home on a term break, he shot himself in the head. End of story. D&D had nothing to do with it. I was there. >One D&D newsletter referred to it briefly; then went on to mention >how their sales went up. This was irresponsible, but typical for marketing of any product. >One dungeon master referred to himself as a god. Seriously or whimsically? It's a standard joke to refer to the referee as "god" since he controls the "lives" of the characters. If he was serious, with an attitude problem like that I doubt he'd find anyone to play with him. >A lot of Christian terminology gets used (misused) in the games. A lot of Norse, Greek, Roman, Tolkien, warfare, and other terminology gets abused too. This isn't anti-Christian, it's anti-literary. Most of D&D's creators knew almost nothing about history, language, religion, armed combat, or flight. (Or physics, for that mastter.) And it shows. Some refs have gone to great lengths to right some of these wrongs; most just make them worse. >Good and bad are confused, murder and death are common place (the more >advanced games get pretty gory), and our God is not glorified. Good and bad get confused? Interesting statement, because one of the strongest rules in D&D is the destinction between good and evil. Devils and demons, for example, are always evil, and almost always objects to be defeated. Players are usually either good or neutral. (Magic, like technology, is considered a natural force of the universe and therefore neutral.) Granted, you use armed combat to defeat oppenents, but this is not the forum to discuss the morals of war. And the more advanced games are *not* the most gory; the more beginner ones are. You obviously have never seen advanced D&D (referee 5+ years experience), which involves much more strategy and tactics than bloodshed. God *can* be glorified in D&D. It's a matter of how the game is played. > And its fruits are for you to judge. Now we get to the part I emphatically agree with. If the fruits of the D&D group you (or your friends) associate with are bad, then avoid it like the plague. The D&D group I played with produced much harmony and good will, and even brought two people to Jesus. These are fruits that I am proud of! -- -m------- Pyramid Technology Carl S. Gutekunst, Software R&D ---mmm----- 1295 Charleston Rd {cmcl2,topaz}!pyrnj! -----mmmmm--- Mt. View, CA 94039 {ihnp4,uwvax}!pyrchi!pyramid!csg -------mmmmmmm- +1 415 965 7200 {allegra,decwrl,dual,sun}!