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From: seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine?
Message-ID: <1246@mtgzz.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 9-Oct-85 13:46:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: mtgzz.1246
Posted: Wed Oct  9 13:46:22 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 12-Oct-85 06:50:50 EDT
References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> <848@homxb.UUCP>, <37@ubc-cs.UUCP>
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In article <848@homxb.UUCP> hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) writes:
>>Re Jamie Andrews' observations that men are constrained from
>>doing traditionally  feminine things like wearing skirts,
>>wile the reverse is not true.
>>This will only change when men and women are seen as being
>>truly equal.  As long as society sees the man's role as
>>being more desirable, powerful, or what have you, any
>>man who takes on what are seen as feminine ways and
>>attributes will be denigrated.  This will even be true
>>by other women, since they are subject to the same societal
>>norms as men....

     >I don't accept this analysis.  Does Ginger Grover think
>women are inferior because of what she said?  (probably not)
     >When heterosexual men object to being thought of as
>like women or gays, they have a very good, non-sexist
>reason: they're not.  

	And I can't accept your analysis of this. Why is it
unmasculine to wear a skirt? Men don't wear skirts because
they don't want to be confused with women? I know very few
men who would be confused with women if they wore a skirt.
Skirts are for women and have, traditionally been so. A man who
wears a skirt loses power(being like a woman). I am not going to
get into the politics of wearing skirts, or wearing pants, at
least not right now. I have work to do, but if any of you would
like to read about our society's imposed standards of femininity
I suggest you get a hold of Susan Brownmiller's book "Femininity."
It is excellent.

     >Men have economic and political power in our society;
>but they don't have the power to change what people think of
>as masculine or feminine.  

	Men have been dictating what is maculine and feminine 
throughout time. Clothes is a particularly good example. Look at
the furor Elizabeth Caty Stanton and Susan B. Anthony started when
they decided they didn't want to wear skirts that reached to the
floor. Why is it that a well dressed female executive can't wear
pants, but must wear a skirt? Well dressed women still don't wear
pants in most cases. And don't tell me it's because they like to 
wear dresses and skirts. I've been to enough meetings to know that
slacks on a woman are just not "dressed up" enough for business.
The equal of a 3 piece suit is still a skirt, blouse and jacket.
Do you think women are actually dictating this fashion? There aren't
enough women at the meetings to make a difference yet.
	Men have no interest in changing the standards of femininity
because they have nothing to lose if the standards remain the same,
and stand to lose security and possibly power if they do change. But
if they wanted to, they could bring about change. 

Sharon Badian
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