Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/3/84; site enmasse.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!ucbvax!ucdavis!lll-crg!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!enmasse!nancy From: nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine? Message-ID: <479@enmasse.UUCP> Date: Thu, 10-Oct-85 18:06:14 EDT Article-I.D.: enmasse.479 Posted: Thu Oct 10 18:06:14 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 14-Oct-85 06:14:42 EDT References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Enmasse Computer Corp., Acton, Mass. Lines: 93 ************************************************************************* An apology: I accidently posted only the beginning of a version of this article earlier. Didn't know how to recall it. ************************************************************************* On some answers to "what makes you feel masculine/feminine?" which included tradionally feminine things like wearing taffeta and perfume, and masculine things like chopping wood and fixing cars, Jamie (ubc-cs!andrews and male) writes: > > I find this amazing... women are still talking > about [ being traditional and irrationally emotional ]... > as the things which make them feel feminine. > This makes me frustrated... [ I can't feel comfortable about > doing "feminine" things ]... > I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine > things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the > role"... If I read you correctly, you are saying (may I paraphrase?) that you are amazed and a bit bewildered at the fact that the people posting their masculine/feminine lists don't seem to have many qualms about enjoying stereotypic sex roles, whereas you feel uncomfortable. It's the old sugar 'n spice 'n everything nice versus frogs and snails and puppy dogs' tails scenario -- except that haven't we all grown up by now? Don't we know that being a woman or a man is a lot more complicated than, say, putting on the Chanel No.5 and the little black dress with its little black accessories and stiletto heels, or, on the other hand, putting on the worn out lumberjack shirt which has gotten a bit tight over the biceps lately and tinkering with the '65 Triumph or ancient Ford truck in the backyard? Well, have we grown up? I don't know. I have felt *extremely* uncomfortable reading these traditionally-oriented postings. I suggest that the people posting their masculine/ feminine lists have not been entirely honest, and that this is why their lists are so free of ambiguity. Certainly, I feel feminine in a low-cut black velvet dress I happen to own. BUT. I also feel feminine when it's night and there I am in the parking lot of Star Market and my car won't start. I sit there, holding back panic. It's dark out. I try the starter again. Nothing. I get out and check the oil. Why, you ask? Because it's the only thing I know how to do under the hood of my car. I get rescued by a man who is parked next to me. I feel feminine. Great. I take my car in to get a new battery (after another man has identified the problem for me). They replace it and charge me $75. Batteries cost $40 at Sears. Terrific. I feel feminine. It's dark out and I'm alone and I hear someone behind me. I feel feminine then, believe me. More positively, I felt feminine when I spent a month travelling by myself, without a set itinerary, managing whatever major and minor crises occurred on the trip without needing to resort to help from anyone. I feel feminine when I get paid. (I feel feminine when I get paid *less* than I am worth, too.) I feel feminine when I explain the inner workings of UNIX or write a program that works. The perfumey feminine feelings are not news to me. But my other feelings of feminity are. They have led me to realize that I feel positively about myself and my sex when I display competence of any sort. (This includes competence at those traditionally feminine things which I happen to enjoy, like dressing up.) I feel negatively about myself and my sex when I display helplessness ("What's a motor?"). Now, helplessness is a traditionally feminine thing, like lace and high heels. No one has mentioned that along with the rest. When we lavish attention on the fact that there's a large basis in reality to some of the old stereotypes, without paying attention to the places where those stereotypes have failed us, we risk losing sight of the complexity with which we actually live out our lives as men and women. If we lose sight, we limit ourselves -- and we are back where we started, without the freedom to make choices about our lives. So I would vote for a cessation of the perfume/wood chopping articles in favor of discussing the ambiguities involved in being masculine or feminine. How do we resolve the stereotypic masculine/feminine cliches to which we so obviously subscribe? Does sexual identify depend on these cliches? The list postings imply that it does. Jamie's posting describes how influenced he is by the cliches, and how he feels limited by them (and by his own changing values). I believe Rich Rosen expressed similar feelings. So let's have more of this sort of talk. What do all of you think? Nancy Werlin EnMasse Computer Corp. Acton, MA