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From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: The Increasing Divorce Rate, and The Future
Message-ID: <1936@pyuxd.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 19-Oct-85 21:23:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: pyuxd.1936
Posted: Sat Oct 19 21:23:28 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 20-Oct-85 06:39:04 EDT
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> There has been a lot of back-and-forth about the fact that the divorce
> rate has increased greatly in the past few decades.  Ray Frank blames
> the liberation of women and the discarding of ``traditional values'' as
> the cause of this.  I agree, 100%.  The increasing life-span is only a
> minor factor in comparison, at least in recent decades.  [ED HALL]

Ray really did that?  Gee, I *should* read this group more regularly (if
only the word "women" didn't begin with a "w", ...).  How typical.  How
expectable.  Ray is doing his job as a satirist.

> But I differ most strongly from Ray that this is a necessarily bad
> thing.  Fewer women (and men) are choosing to suffer in bad
> relationships.  Women are asking for more out of marriage, and often
> aren't getting it--and so are moving on.  Ray thinks this is
> self-centeredness.  I think it is self-respect.  I think Ray is being
> self-centered by expecting other people to live according to his
> expectations.

It's "self-centeredness" by people other than his own "kind".  By his
reasoning, any group other than his own which is somehow taken advantage
of expressing "self-centeredness" (really, as you say, self-respect) is
a heinous evil to be gotten rid of because it destroys the precious fabric
of society.  Only HIS kind have the right to be self-centered.  Anyone
else seeking that same level of self-respect is evil and horrible.  A woman.
A black.  A Jew.  A member of any number of other minorities.  How horrible
that they DARE to assume that same level of expectation for respect that
Ray demands!  Do you recognize that this is the very sort of backlash to
be expected from "haves" when "have-nots" assert their dignity and humanity?
This whining about "going back to the old ways" when things were better
(for them!).  (I should shut up---the last time I presented this position,
Don Black magically appeared! :-( )  But, seriously, is that "fabric of
society" more important than the dignity of individual members of that society?

> We are in a transitionary generation.  Old institutions aren't working
> very well (in many cases they never did, dispite what people think--
> human memory is always selective).  We flounder sometimes in attepts at
> forming new institutions.  We mix old and new in ill-fitting ways.  We
> learn by doing.  Sometimes we make mistakes, and have to back out and
> try again.

I think most generations are transitory in some form or other, ours perhaps
more so than most prior to it owing to the "fast pace" of our age.  One
thing I learned the other day was the notion of goal vs. process:  we (and
I'm not sure who "we" is, though I think it refers to western civilization
at large) seem to be more interested in reaching a goal, achieving the results,
rather than the process that gets us there.  I'm sure some people will
say that that's an "eastern" way in opposition to the "western" way, and Sunny
may even chime in by claiming that it's a female rather than a male way,
but no matter. (Frankly I don't believe either perspective.)  But both process
and goal are important, and we may often forget the effect that simply
getting the result may have on people.  Bussing to get to integration
alienated a lot of people, for example.  The result is often more important
than the effect that getting that result may engender.  We need to pay a lot
more attention to the process of transition from one set of norms (outdated
and oppressive) to a new one (less so).  But I feel little or no sympathy
for those who simply are boldly insensitive to the demands of those people
who are merely seeking an equivalent level of respect, simply because they
would prefer that things would remain the same (or go back to the way they
were) for their benefit.  Conservatives feed on the uneasiness of people
in these sorts of times, heralding a move back to the old ways as a panacea.

> Thus, I think that the high divorce rate is a natural result of
> transitions from old ways of doing things to new (and eventually better)
> ways of doing things.  When have people not been self-centered,
> especially in times of change?  It takes time for self-awareness to
> develop beyond self-obsession.

I've said a lot of other random garbage, but one thing I haven't said yet
is "Very well said, Ed!"
-- 
"iY AHORA, INFORMACION INTERESANTE ACERCA DE... LA LLAMA!"
	Rich Rosen    ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr