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From: seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine?
Message-ID: <1305@mtgzz.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 31-Dec-69 18:59:59 EDT
Article-I.D.: mtgzz.1305
Posted: Wed Dec 31 18:59:59 1969
Date-Received: Thu, 24-Oct-85 08:06:21 EDT
References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> <848@homxb.UUCP> <37@ubc-cs.UUCP> <1246@mtgzz.URe: what makes you feel feminine/masculine?
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ
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> From mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) [aka Marcel Simon]
>> Sharon Badian[aka me]:

>> The men are the only ones who can answer my question. You complain about the
>> rules of masculinity, but where do they come from?

>Don't generalize; *some*, *a few*, or whatever, complain. 

I didn't say all men, did I? You can therefore assume "some" men. If I had
said "You all complain about the..." you might have something to go on, but
really. And of course, I have to generalize! I can't name every man in
the world and say "Well, this one feels this way, and that one feels some-
thing totally different."  I think the one's who have voiced complaints
lately know that I am talking about them. They are the only ones who can
answer my question since they feel that way. Now, if you don't feel that
way, ignore the bloodly question!

>>           ..... Women are free to be more like men ....

>So why do they complain so bitterly about it? A lot of women's writing
>(not necessarily feminist or political) is about how lonely, competitive,
>etc. it is to operate in this society. About how lousy a deal it is to reach
>the top and have no one to share it with, etc. Of course, that is
>men's fault. Never mind that we have known this all along, that we are
>also stuck in the same loop. It's our fault. I don't ever recall hearing
>a male say that if women were more like men, everything would be OK.
>If women made that assumption, fought to make it reality and now find
>that it was faulty, well, whose responsibility is that?

Women do complain bitterly about HAVING to be more like men in many
situations. The reality is that in business women and minorities have
to follow the same rules that men follow. They really don't have much
choice. Yes, they can fight the establishment, and many do. Things
change slowly. But again I have to ask "If you, as a man, find the rules
unfair, and know that other men feel the same way, why don't you try to 
change the rules?" Women complain that the rules are unfair and
they try to change them (and not every women believes that men are at
fault for the way the game is played, as you seem to be saying). But
why after so many years of male dominination in business, are you complaining
about something that men, as a group, could change if they wanted to?
And don't ask me how! Groups of individuals have significant clout
in our society. And considering the power, money and influence that men,
as a group, have, it seems absurd to think that they can't change the
rules under which they operate. It seems obvious to me that most men
either like the current set of rules, are ambilivalent, or have given up
trying.

What I meant when I said "women are more free to be like men" (and
you left off my parathetical statement where I said I couldn't think of
a better way to put it - it's obvious that I will have to find a better
way now) is that when a woman wants to wear pants, when a woman wants
to climb mountains, when a woman wants to be a police officer, when a
woman wants to run for office, she can. Historically these are male
things, because women have not been allowed to do them. You want it
put a different way? Women now feel free to persue their dreams. Un-
fortunately, that doesn't relate to the rest of my article. Women now
have the freedom (and freedom means they can choose which is not the
same as having to follow the rules of business just to get ahead) to
do masculine things, while men generally don't feel free to do feminine
things (with the exception of Boy George :-)).

>> So we're back to the question of "why can't men act like more like women?"

>So that's the central question, hey? If women want to be more like men, then
>men must want to be more like women. Well, I don't claim to speak for
>anyone other than myself, but I enjoy being male, and I can't honestly
>see any advantage in becoming "more like women." 
>I am comfortable in my own skin, and see no real reason to want to
>become "more like women," and especially not because some woman says so.

You have read this all wrong! And in the context of my article, I'm not
sure how you could construe my question this way. When you take the question
"why can't men act more like women" out of my article, sure, it sounds
bad. But you can't take it out of context. Maybe I should take a survey
and see how many people actually thought the question meant "Well, I sure
wish men could be more like women. Why can't they??!!" instead of "Why
don't men feel free to do feminine things in our society?"

Though you personally may not have any need to do anything "feminine"
there are many men who do have such a need. This need ranges from 
being "emotional" (crying for sadness or joy, for example) to wearing
dresses and makeup. I wasn't saying that all men should try to be more
like women. They should be who they want to be. And at times society's
concept of masculinity gets in the way.

So could we have some men who do feel trapped by masculinity express
their thoughts on the subject!

Sharon Badian
ihnp4!mtgzz!seb