Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site lanl.ARPA Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!lanl!jlg From: jlg@lanl.ARPA Newsgroups: net.books Subject: Re: Middle Earth (Tolkien) Questions Message-ID: <33674@lanl.ARPA> Date: Thu, 21-Nov-85 02:45:06 EST Article-I.D.: lanl.33674 Posted: Thu Nov 21 02:45:06 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 23-Nov-85 09:33:09 EST References: <2152@umcp-cs.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 184 This note is in answer to the four questions about Tolkien's Middle Earth series. All references are directly to material written by Tolkien himself. In the page numbers given for the trilogy 'hard' means the hardbound edition and 'soft' means the paperback. Both are the revised second edition 1965. All other references are to the hardbound editions of the relevant books (although, I don't think there is any difference in the page numbering for the other books). All references are at the end of this note and are numbered. >Question #1: >Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the race of >Dwarves to the Ring? In other words, should not Gimli, Gloin's son, have >been chosen as Ringbearer? He could not have been turned into a wraith. > . . . I already know that the "burden" could not be laid upon >someone's shoulders, but it seems to me that JRRT overlooked this possibility. >What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer? Gimli was not present at the Council of Elrond, his father Gloin was. Nor was Gimli chosen to be one of the companions of the Ring until the expedition made ready to depart Rivendell - nearly two months after the Council [1]. Elrond wished to send representatives of each kindred, but it is in fact never told what reasons Gimli had for choosing to go. Even so, there are reasons why Gimli (or any Dwarf) would not have been chosen to carry the ring. Some of these have been given already in this discussion. The main one might be that Elves (particularly the Teleri [2]) had very little trust in Dwarves. Consider the reception Gimli got in Lorien [3]. Finally, the ring already had a bearer. Gandalf, at least, had reason to believe that Hobbits would prove resistant [4]. Gollum had possessed the Ring for nearly 500 years (2463-2941 Third age [5]), and had not yet entirely been ruined [6]. Furthermore, Frodo had already proven himself as a bearer [7]. What would have happened if Gimli had been bearer is a matter of pure speculation, especially since it was not ever really considered. >Question #2: > . . . "Which of the Rings of >Power still existed in Middle Earth after the Sailing of the Keepers?" >My answer was the chief of the Nine Rings, that of the Witchking of Angmar. >Though powerless after the One had been destroyed, I assumed that it had >been found on the Pelennor Fields during the clean-up, and preserved as >an heirloom in Gondor, or in some museum somewhere. The nine were in Barad-dur at the time of the War of the Ring. The reference: "At length he [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case [the quest for the Ring] but his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held [8]." This seems pretty clear. The three remaining of the Dwarvish rings are also assumed to have been possessed by Sauron, but no clear justification of this conjecture is given [9]. Sauron certainly held the ring of Durin which he took from Thrain at Dol Guldur [10]. Now if any of the rings survived, they would be deep in the rubble of Barad-Dur. I don't think they survived as they would have been kept in, or near, Sauron's own quarters and Sauron's destruction seems to have been quite violent. I don't think the Palantir of Minas Ithil survived either, for the same reasons. > . . . Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven) >to enslave more powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine? >As Frodo and Gollum could have been turned into wraiths by the One Ring, >why could the Nine not have multiple "victims"? In the second age, while Sauron held the Ruling Ring, it would not have made sense to deprive the Wraiths of their rings, and therefore much of their power. In the third age, Sauron could not afford to let anyone have the nine rings, lest someone of power should find the Ruling Ring and gain control over a group of Wraiths at the same time. Furthermore, it took quite some time to make Wraiths. The nine were taken from Celebrimbor in 1693 SA (Second Age) but the Wraiths were not seen until about 2251 SA [11]. This is over 500 years, and I would guess that Sauron would have distributed the rings soon after he acquired them. Also, remember, Gollum held the Ruling Ring for nearly 500 years and was not yet a Wraith. >Question #3: >Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover >all of the Seven that survived. Why? What use were they to him? It didn't >seem that he used them at all. This is for the same reason given above for holding the nine rings of the Nazgul - any ring that Sauron didn't have was one more ring that MIGHT have been used against him in the coming war. I doubt that Sauron got any use at all out of them for himself since they were designed to be used by Dwarves. >Question #4: >How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via >palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? He knew of the Quest and >its mission before Faramir was wounded, and he used the palantir while he >was wounded. "He [Denethor] was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see [12]." Also: "Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into dispair [13]." From these passages (and other related ones) it is clear that Sauron and Denethor never 'conversed' through the Palantiri, but that Sauron could direct, in some measure, what Denethor was able to view through his stone. In the final contest, Denethor probably saw the black ships sailing up the Anduin, but was misled into believing they were Corsairs. > Well, I have not found much, but we do indeed know more than nothing > about them. They were made by Celebrimbor of Eregion in the Second > Age, under the tutelage of Sauron. (Incidentally, all of the Great > Rings, except of course the One, were made by him.) All but the > Three were found by Sauron in his attack on Eregion after the > forging of the One. Alas for Celebrimbor: his heart held against > the tortures of the Enemy, and he was cruelly put to death. Sauron > seems to have taken the Seven back to Mordor at this time, and > given them out somewhat later. This last is but speculation, > however. I can't find any indication that Celebrimbor made any rings but the three. "In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made the Rings of Power." Also: "Therefore, the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them...." Lastly: "And all those rings that he [Sauron] governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making...[14]." This indicates that Celebrimbor made the Three (at least), and that Sauron had a part (at least) in the making of all the others. This interpretation is nowhere contradicted. As for the histories of the Dwarven rings, they are as uncertain as the origins of the Nazgul. Only the fate of the ring of Durin is told (as above). [1] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.361(soft) p.289(hard). [2] 'The Silmarillion', p.233. The Dwarves kill Elu Thingol and steal the Nauglamir (with a Silmaril), thus begins a war between the Elves and Dwarves. The Teleri (of Thingol's kindred) never trust Dwarves again. [3] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.445 etc (soft) p.358 etc (hard). And again, Celeborn's statement p.461 (soft) p.371 (hard):"... had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you." [4] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.78(soft) p.58(hard): "I think it likely that some [Hobbits] would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe." [5] 'The Return of the King', p.459(soft) p.368(hard). [6] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.84(soft) p.62(hard). Gandalf identifies Smeagol/Gollum as a Stoor and discusses his possession of the Ring. [7] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.292(soft) p.234(hard): "I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days." [8] 'Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth'; C. Tolkien, Ed.; p.338. [9] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.82(soft) p.60(hard). [10] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.351(soft) p.282(hard). [11] 'The Return of the King', p.454(soft) p.364(hard). [12] 'The Return of the King', p.161(soft) p.132(hard). [13] 'Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth', p.408. [14] 'The Silmarillion', p.287 etc. J. Giles Los Alamos