Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-squirt!arndt From: arndt@squirt.DEC Newsgroups: net.motss Subject: Re.Re. Gettin' Satisfaction, a rebuttal Message-ID: <1447@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Fri, 15-Nov-85 16:53:20 EST Article-I.D.: decwrl.1447 Posted: Fri Nov 15 16:53:20 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 21-Nov-85 05:53:00 EST Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 88 I raise your butt and . . . . ( a little homosexual humor there gang) Well, thanks eric for your rebuttal, but it was a little foggy in the thought department I think. You say: Whenever someone, foreign to our niche, views a gay relationship they immediately focus their attentions upon the 'bedroom'. I really find this maddening! Gay relationships, just like any other 'real' relationships, *do not* revolve around sex. Yes, that is a part of it; but it's far from the total picture. *** I quite agree that the first thing that pops into someone's mind when confronted with homosexuality is . . . sex! Er, . . . but what is wrong with that, even when that is ALL that comes to mind?? I mean, is not SEX one if not THE distinctive of a homosexual relationship?? Take away the sex in same sex attraction and you have . . . FRIENDSHIP!!! Now I would agree with those who might say that our culture inhibits rightful warmth and love between members of the same sex and that ought not to be. Perhaps it is because people are afraid of same sex sexual attraction taking place. You know, "hug me, squeeze me, but touch my weenie and you're a fag (and I'm suspect)." But you have a point that people often overplay the sexual aspect of homosexual attraction. Perhaps parents may be forgiven, "I didn't raise my son to be a . . . . " A mano y mano relationship without sexual outlet in any OTHER relationship is monkish to say the least. Some have the 'gift' and some don't. People are so rich and interesting in their characters and personalities that just about any mold we try to fit them into falls short of a fair description. Our societal rules and customs DO inhibit expression and sometimes hurt people. So men or women ought to be able to have deep same sex friendships and not fall into perversion of our biological sexual makeup - which I hold to be hetersexual. But it seems to me, even while sex MAY be overplayed in people's minds, that homosexuality is ABOUT sex! So it IS fair to speak to it as an issue. Which is what I was doing. I don't see how sex can be separated from homoSEXual. You seem to be saying is that there is MORE to it than sex and I agree. But I am saying a same sex realtionship WITHOUT sex is NOT homosexual! You say: I am not touting . . . this . . . is the perfect solution - because, it's not - there is no such thing. **** I agree that one can never find a 'perfect' love/sex relationship with anyone. But what I AM talking about are our dreams, ideals, and what we strive for and want in relationships. Sure we have to settle. For a lot of things in a lot of areas of life. But for a man to 'prefer' a man for sexual fulfullment of the 'dream' of being a sexual man is perversion on the face of it. As for your claim to the 'hidden' wonders of homosexual love/sex - there may be friendship but when it comes to sex it's the ole monkey with the football again! THERE ARE TOO MANY OTHERWISE FINE YOUNG (AND NOT SO YOUNG) MEN AND WOMEN OUT THERE WHO ARE BEING SOLD A BILL OF GOODS ABOUT 'LIFESTYLE' AND 'SEXUAL PREFERENCE' AND CRAP LIKE THAT WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS TO STAND UP AND SAY 'THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES' - HOMOSEXUALITY IS SECOND CLASS, DESTRUCTIVE EMOTIONALLY AND SPIRITUALLY (I'm not talking religiously here) AND CAUSES THE HOMOSEXUAL TO MISS A GREATER PART OF HUMAN FULFULLMENT!!!! To laugh at my saying the 'thrill of seeing your child born and the thrill of that one woman, etc.' is to laugh at yourself. Because those aspirations of mine are based upon the way we ARE made as I've said. I believe you KNOW that and much homosexual expression is self-hatred for just this reason. It's not all because of pressure from the unthinking, unfeeling heterosexual cave people's reaction to you. I reject the notion that you can't resist the pull toward homosexuality - any more than I would buy the notion that you HAVE to be a mean/kind, warm/cold person or any other such personality or moral type. I'm attracted to stealing, children, animals, hurting myself in the shower. What kind of a rational is that? None really. Merely having the attraction is NOT a reason to DO something!!!! What is the JUSTIFICATION FOR IT? I know, I know, you don't want to have to JUSTIFY your homosexuality (you've said so on the net - not you eric - before.) What about justifying it to YOURSELF??? Or do you just do it because it feels good and it's the easy path? I simply reject your claim to the possession of a fulfill- ing love/sex relationship of the same sex kind. A man cannot fulfull the total needs of another man. You should be honest and admit it at least. I'd think you were wrong and less than you could/should be but at least you wouldn't be trying to convince the world up is down and playing mind games with yourself and others. Sorry to carry on so. I'll step down now. Regards, Ken Arndt