Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site csd2.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!pyramid!pesnta!phri!cmcl2!csd2!squires From: squires@csd2.UUCP (Charles S Squires Jr) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Peace Initiatives in Ireland: A Reply to Adrian Kent Message-ID: <3630030@csd2.UUCP> Date: Mon, 18-Nov-85 20:25:00 EST Article-I.D.: csd2.3630030 Posted: Mon Nov 18 20:25:00 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 26-Nov-85 21:51:24 EST References: <620@sftig.UUCP> Organization: New York University Lines: 297 J. M. McGhee writes: > My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary says: > > "concentration camp n : a camp where persons (as prisoners > of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined." > Most persons held there have never been tried in a court of law for >their **> SUSPECTED <** transgressions of the infamous Special Powers Act. >Aside from that, it and other "prisons" in northern Ireland bear a strong >physical resemblance to Auswitz or Buchenwald. There are no gas chambers or >ovens there that we know of, but if loyalists like George Seawright have their >way it won't be long before they're installed. By using Webster's definition, you can really stretch the term Concentration Camp. Therefore, I suggest people call Long Kesh a Concentration Camp as a propaganda technique. I also must laugh when you hint that anyone would possible install gas chambers and ovens there. But then again, maybe the British could get them installed by hiring the same people who plant car bombs and send letter bombs killing hundreds of innocents. > Yes, according to the BBC-TV documentary entitled "The Troubles" it > did. You find it on page 23 of the transcript of that program which can be > obtained by writing to BBC-TV. It also describes a portable gallows which > was the size of a small cart and could be set up in less than a minute for > instant hangings. These were typically used for British Army lynchings of > any person who showed any sign of resistance to British Rule. Many other > hangings were carried out by the loyalist "yeomanry" (i.e. loyalist subjects). > It was also a "crime" for a Catholic priest to celebrate the Mass. > The penalty for that "crime" was that the "criminal" was hanged, drawn and > quartered. I assume you know what hanging is. Drawing and quartering meant > that you stretched a person out on the ground and hacked his or her body > into four roughly equal but extremely bloody pieces. This was meant to > **> TERRORIZE <** the audience. I guess that makes the executioners TERRORISTS. This argument is no more pertinent to a discussion of the present day climate in Northern Ireland than would be an analysis of the Inquisition thrust upon Europe for over a century, killing many thousands. > but I haven't had any luck. Next time I'll bring my tape recorder! If that > disappoints you, consider this: This past summer a conference of more than > 100 lawyers met in Paris to consider the totality of the problem in Ireland. > The lawyers were from France, Britain, Belgium, the US and Ireland. Their > conclusions were: > > 1. The Irish government must "assert vigorously" the right of > self-determination of the the people of all of Ireland and ensure > that the enforcement of this right is placed on the agenda of the > United Nations General Assembly and other appropriate international > institutions. Northern Ireland was retained as a part of the United Kingdom simply becuase of the right of self-determination. Self-determination is done by Nations, and the protestants of Northern Ireland constitute a nation separate from the Irish nation. Protestants of the North call themselves BRITISH. THey are not Irish. As British subjects, they are entitled to a self- determination apart from that of the Irish people. The Irish have no more right to impose an island-wide government than the Chinese have to impose a world government. > 2. The British government was cited for fueling political violence by > the use of "special" courts and laws. Desperate times, you know. Things have not always been this way. This episode began in 1969, due to wholesale slaughter and outright war. Belfast 1969 was like recent Beirut. It would be nice for a climate to be restored under which these courts and laws could be abolished. This was the aim of both the legitimate governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in their recent agreement. > 3. The continued reliance of the authorities on special courts in Ireland > and emergency legislation in all parts of Ireland and Britain runs > counter to the rule of law, alienates the police from judicial > institutions and contributes to political violence. So does the kangaroo courts of the IRA. > 4. Excessive powers of arrest and seizure are allowed to military units > being used as police forces. > 5. The Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) which "operates as a sectarian unit > within the British Army" must be disbanded. Now, wait a minute. Lawyers from France, the US, and Ireland have no right to impose this judgement on the internal affairs of the United Kingdom. The fact remains that this unit is necessary to protect the lives of Catholics living in the north as well as the Protestants. > 6. The power of detaining suspects without charges for seven days is > contrary to the basic rights of a suspect and is frequently abused, > allowing unacceptable forms of pressure to be used against suspects > and these powers are widely used for motives other than the > investigation of offenses. Under conditions of massive strife and terrorism, which can be found in Northern Ireland, the middle east, and Central America, governments are forced to take a "shoot first and ask questions later" stance. To expect a model system of American-style justice under conditions of virtual civil war is a bit unreasonable. > 7. The use of plastic bullets against the civilian population is > denounced as a serious violation of human rights. > 8. The use of plastic bullets must be banned in accordance with the > resolutions of the European Parliament in May, 1982 and October 1984. I think they decided to use plastic bullets to replace the older policy of using real ones. > I don't want to suggest that only Catholics can police other > Catholics. There are many Protestants who do not agree with the actions of > the RUC and the British Army who wouldn't dare to state it to their own people. > A few years ago, a loyalist leader was dragged down off a speaking platform > and beaten to death in front of his wife and literally thousands of people > for suggesting that the people of northern Ireland should live together in > peace. There were no witnesses to that murder, none would say what they saw. (sarcastic mode on) Really now? Give me a break. I'm sure the alleged perpetrators here got so infuriated when they heard the man wish for peace! (sarcastic mode off) > The IRA makes a special point of killing any RUC or British Army > personnel, whether Catholic or Protestant, who are involved in torturing > and killing Irish people in order to perpetuate British Rule. One Catholic > RUC man who was recently killed by the IRA had tortured prisoners, according > to victims interviewed by Sinn Fein. My point exactly. > Northern Ireland is sharply divided over the question of whether > it will be governed by the English system of The Ascendancy in which, as > George Orwell stated in the "Animal Farm": - "some animals are more equal > than others" or whether it will be an egalitarian community in which every > person is born with the same rights and privileges and every person is judged > by their actions and accomplishments. The monarchy (I assume you're referring to the monarchy) is just symbolic. Worldwide, the parliamentary system of government is lauded as one of the most democratic forms of government in existence. One might even argue that it is even more democratic than our own form of government with its electoral college. > The loyalist "majority" was artificially created by the most contrived > gerrymandering the world has ever seen. Not only are towns cut by the border, > but even individual farms are cut by it, so that half a farmer's land is under > British control and half is under the control of the Dublin government. > This loyalist "majority" can only be maintained by constant pressure > of violence and denial of rights to drive out members of the "minority" to > preclude them from becoming becoming a "majority" even in that contrived > gerrymandered artificial state as they most certainly will be if they are > ever left in peace. > Since the loyalist "majority" cannot be maintained without this > pressure of violence and human rights denial, these evils must forever > continue in order to maintain British Rule. Sorry, but gerrymandering doesn't create people. It is true that the British have drawn artificial borders between electoral districts, but the national border between the south and north was drawn along COUNTY lines. Counties with a protestant majority voted to remain under British rule. It is interesting to note that not ALL counties of Ulster remained with Britain; however, the majority of protestants in the north is great enough for gerrymandering not to have altered the original partition. It is also true that the Catholic minority of the north is becoming less of a minority all the time. This is because the population growth rate of the Catholic community is greater, and becuase Britain does not restrict immigration from the south, from where many youth come to find good work. > The partitioning of Ireland in 1922 violates the United Nations > conventions on colonialism. By these conventions, authored by all the nations > of the world, an imperial power (such as England) may not partition or > subdivide any of its colonies. An imperial power may not withdraw from only > part of a colony and maintain an occupied enclave within that colony. > These actions are violations of the national sovereignty and territorial > integrity of the former colony. Ireland was a PART OF THE UNITED KINGDOM (not a colony) for over 100 years before the partitioning. In addition, I think the argument that Ireland was a British COLONY is not air-tight in light of the geographical proximity of the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. Moreover, Northern Ireland is inhabited by BRITISH folks, and is not merely governed by them. The era of the indigents is as long gone as the days when Massachusetts was inhabited by American Indians. In the partition of Ireland, no nation was divided in two. Rather, each nation was given the right to choose its own government. > The so-called "loyalist" community is only loyal to its continued > dominance in that artificial state. Many "loyalists" dislike the British > government almost as much as the Nationalists/Republicans do. They have said > so quite often and there is considerable support among "loyalists" for the > concept of an "independent Ulster" which is controlled by neither London > nor Dublin. Perhaps, but only in VERY isolated cases. The Northern-Irish are some of the most loyal British subjects around. No groups is without its splinter groups, though. > "Loyalists", using automatic weapons, have fought pitched street > battles agaist the British Army in the Shankill district of Belfast. This > is described by Captain Anthony F.N. Clarke of the British Parachute > Regiment in his book entitled "Contact". On occasion, people do fight against their own governments. Even in the US, the coal miners of WV fought their government with arms for quite some time. The fact that this occurred points out that the presence of the British troops in Northern Ireland is as much of an imposition on the desires of the Loyalists to impose their own local brand of justice as it is an imposition on the IRA. In fact, the military presence amounts to a police action to keep bigots from lynching each other. > Sinn Fein recognizes both of these governing bodies to the extent > that it participates in elections and now accounts for about 98 elected > representatives both north and south. It considers both governments > fundamentally flawed by their structure and operating procedures. Aha! You see, these folks are out to replace the whole system. This is why the IRA has been outlawed in BOTH the UK and Ireland. > Neither of these states has implemented the principal of "one-man, > one-vote" (i.e., proportional representation) nor have they implemented the > independent drawing of electoral district boundaries which make gerrymandering > practically impossible. True. In fact, it IS pretty bad in the Republic of Ireland, with a 5% protestant minority WITHOUT ANY prepresentation in parliament, while the Catholic Church gets a number of seats out of its status as the National Religion. > or military seizure of the reins of government. They actually intend to > "overthrow" the Dublin government by gaining the support of the majority > of Irish voters or at least by becoming an indispensible minority in a > coalition government and forcing the Dublin government to make reforms. Reforms for socialism.. (the context of this reply was in defending the Socialist stance of Sinn Fein. Who needs it. Ireland has enough problems right now. > The British government should stop torturing, harassing, murdering > and illegally imprisoning people. It should adhere to the judgements of the > United Nations on the status of former colonies. It should adhere to the > clearly demonstrated wishes of the majority of the British people who want > to their troops out of Ireland. It should forever and immediately withdraw > its troops from all Irish soil. Areas which have a Nationalist/Republican > majority should immediately be transferred to the control of the government > of Ireland. The UN is not always gospel. Sometimes, the Warsaw pact nations and the 3rd world nations impose unreasonable judgements on the world. Besides, you are stretching the interpretation of UN resolutions to apply here. > Areas having a loyalist "majority" should be allowed to operate > autonomously for a period of time until these people sort out their loyalties > without the presence of British troops. In the event of disorder in loyalist > "majority" areas, the security forces of the Irish government should exercise > their right of sovereignty in these areas, but only in the case of disorder. Why? Their loyalties are already "sorted out." And they are not about to change their minds. Of course, the loyalists would LOVE to live without British troops, but the IRA terrorists would go unchecked, and deaths would mount on BOTH sides rapidly. > Because there was no civil war between nationalists and loyalists > in the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland after the establishment of > that government. There WAS a civil war between Republican factions because the > British Army and government did not fully withdraw in 1922. It is the British > presence which was then and continues to be the cause of violence. Au contraire. British military presence was minimal in 1968. This allowed the current episode of troubles to flare. > I am on the side of logic. Logic tells me that the only good thing > that the British government has ever done in Ireland is withdraw its troops > and get out. This is the only possible good thing that they can do now. > J. M. McGhee Sir, Logic tells me that the governments of Ireland and the United Kingdom have sovereignty over their own territories. That the inhabitants of the British Isles have the right to govern themselves. ANd I think that the recent agreement between Dublin and London is one, which while nobody is totally happy with it (neither the radicals of the IRA or the UDL), we must respect is as the concordance of ALL of the legitimate governments of the area. Britain has recognized Irish interests, but Dublin has recognized London's sovereignty. The issue is being settled by the parties involved. Perhaps Americans should keep out of it. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Charles Squires, Rm 619 WWH, | ARPA: squires@nyu-csd2.ARPA | | Courant Institute of Mathematical | UUCP: ...cmcl2!csd2!squires | | Sciences, New York University | CSNET: squires@nyu-csd2@csnet-relay | | 251 Mercer St, NY, NY, 10012 | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/