Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!ucbvax!arnold From: arnold@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Kenneth C R C Arnold) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Zionism is not racism; Anti-Israel = antisemitic Message-ID: <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: Mon, 25-Nov-85 21:44:48 EST Article-I.D.: ucbvax.11085 Posted: Mon Nov 25 21:44:48 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 29-Nov-85 20:57:52 EST References: <482@mhuxm.UUCP> <11015@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <489@mhuxm.UUCP> Reply-To: arnold@ucbvax.UUCP (Kenneth C R C Arnold) Organization: University of California at Berkeley Lines: 74 Xref: lsuc net.politics:2162 net.religion.jewish:1612 In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: >>> ... the following identity is TRUE: >>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) >> >> The preceding identity is FALSE. >> >> ... At the time of the debate after WW II about >> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it >> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel >> before the coming of the Messiah ... >> >> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the >> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. >> (Ken Arnold) > >My response: > >1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. > It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. Deeply hold this view all you like. How many Jews would agree? I find this a hard view to credit. I would admit that there are people of groups (in this case Jews) who adopt the anti- (in this case anti-semitic) views of a surrounding society, but these people generally try and blend into the outside society. Surely there are anti-semitic racial Jews (i.e., from Jewish background), but I find it hard to understand how devout, practicing, and serious Jews can be considered anit-semitic. >2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with > the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist. You seem to be refuting that here. Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship. He is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also, certainly, a Zionist. He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as I'm concerned, but this is beside the point. If you define "Anti-Israel" as "Against the existence of *any* state of Israel", you are stating a tautology, and we are just having a confusion engendered by differeing definitions. It seems to me that Israel *is* a republic in which citizens vote for a representative parliment, in which every (legal) resident is a citizen, in which freedoms often termed "Western" exist, etc. These are fundamental to the State of Israel, so I presumed that by "anti-Israel" you meant "against the Israeli system". >3) Remember that if you are anti-Zionist, you are advocating > the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification > to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction > of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly > called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say > I don't like the French ... nobody assumes that I am calling > for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. As I understand the Zionist movement, it started as a movement for an independent state for the Jews, whether or not in Palestine. Certainly, anyone who is anti-Zionist does not believe that a Jewish state should exist. However, your terms are a bit loaded. My anti-Zionist Jewish friends might prefer the term "dismantle", but mostly they just feel that they are under no obligation to support Israel, since (they feel) it should never have been founded in the first place. One cannot unshatter the glass, but one is not required to applaud the mess created, they say. Note that I am only objecting to the equating of being anti-Zionist with being anti-semitic, since I know Jews who are anti-Zionist, but not self-hateful. I think you are unintentionally insulting them by dismissing such dissent as anti-semitic when it is clearly not. It seems to be argument by name-calling, which is only a form of political proof, not a form of reasoned or humane proof. Ken Arnold