Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site hector.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!qantel!lll-crg!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!hector!martillo From: martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Zionism is not racism; Anti-Israel = antisemitic Message-ID: <170@hector.UUCP> Date: Wed, 27-Nov-85 08:14:18 EST Article-I.D.: hector.170 Posted: Wed Nov 27 08:14:18 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 29-Nov-85 21:11:11 EST References: <482@mhuxm.UUCP> <11015@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <489@mhuxm.UUCP> <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Reply-To: martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) Organization: MIT Project Athena Lines: 96 Xref: lsuc net.politics:2205 net.religion.jewish:1623 In article <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> arnold@ucbvax.UUCP (Kenneth C R C Arnold) writes: >In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: >>>> ... the following identity is TRUE: >>>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) >>> >>> The preceding identity is FALSE. >>> >>> ... At the time of the debate after WW II about >>> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it >>> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel >>> before the coming of the Messiah ... >>> >>> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the >>> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. >>> (Ken Arnold) >> >>My response: >> >>1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. >> It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. > >Deeply hold this view all you like. How many Jews would agree? I find >this a hard view to credit. I would admit that there are people of >groups (in this case Jews) who adopt the anti- (in this case >anti-semitic) views of a surrounding society, but these people >generally try and blend into the outside society. Surely there are >anti-semitic racial Jews (i.e., from Jewish background), but I find it >hard to understand how devout, practicing, and serious Jews can be >considered anit-semitic. Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the experience of European Jews among Europeans. Only Sefardic Judaism can be considered normative. While most Sefardic hakamim (sages) despise European Zionism, none are against the existence of Israel and almost all consider Israel 'athilta' dege'ulta' (the beginning of redemption). While badly phrased, Abeles statement is not essentially wrong. >>2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with >> the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. > >You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist. You seem to be refuting that >here. Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of >Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship. He >is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also, >certainly, a Zionist. He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as >I'm concerned, but this is beside the point. I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the Torah. The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the sake of preserving life. Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel. >If you define "Anti-Israel" as "Against the existence of *any* state of >Israel", you are stating a tautology, and we are just having a >confusion engendered by differeing definitions. It seems to me >that Israel *is* a republic in which citizens vote for a representative >parliment, in which every (legal) resident is a citizen, in which >freedoms often termed "Western" exist, etc. These are fundamental to >the State of Israel, so I presumed that by "anti-Israel" you meant >"against the Israeli system". > >> the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification >> to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction >> of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly >> called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say >> I don't like the French ... nobody assumes that I am calling >> for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. >As I understand the Zionist movement, it started as a movement for an >independent state for the Jews, whether or not in Palestine. >Certainly, anyone who is anti-Zionist does not believe that a Jewish >state should exist. However, your terms are a bit loaded. My >anti-Zionist Jewish friends might prefer the term "dismantle", but >mostly they just feel that they are under no obligation to support >Israel, since (they feel) it should never have been founded in the >first place. One cannot unshatter the glass, but one is not required >to applaud the mess created, they say. I have no obligation to support France but I do not go around calling for the dismantling of France. If you oppose the idea of nations,better to dismantle the Muslim nations first because all of them from Mauritania to Idonesia commit attrocities which make apartheid look like liberal democracy. >Note that I am only objecting to the equating of being anti-Zionist >with being anti-semitic, since I know Jews who are anti-Zionist, but >not self-hateful. I think you are unintentionally insulting them by >dismissing such dissent as anti-semitic when it is clearly not. It >seems to be argument by name-calling, which is only a form of political >proof, not a form of reasoned or humane proof. > > Ken Arnold